I was alerted that Lara Logan had spoken out and that her interview would be aired soon after by a few of her admirers, in insulting e-mails they kindly sent me. I’ve been travelling from the Middle East to Colombia, and busy here doing my job. So only this morning (5 de Mayo day) I had a chance to watch the 60 Minutes show’s video titled “Lara Logan breaks her silence”. She’s breaking the silence rather late, months after her employer CBS issued a communiqué, allegedly based on Logan’s statements, about the assault she suffered at Cairo’s Tahrir’s sq. on February 11th.
The CBS described the event in terms which were both ambiguous and diferring from what I and others saw. This helped to spark a public debate in which many bigots felt justified in vilifying Egyptian and Muslim men in general, instead of those who actually assaulted Logan. From the CBS’s communiqué’s terms, they thought this celebrity reporter had been raped or even gang raped in public, in the most important square of Egypt, which was packed with people, without any civilian male willing to help her.
I’m a professional journalist concerned with the damage that misinformation or partial information can do. As such, it was my responsibility to tell what I saw and ask others about it, to help clarify the events. And I thought that Logan and/or the CBS would have an interest in dettaching themselves from the racist and sexist allegations that were finding basis –not factual evidence– in this communiqué. For that reason, I hoped, they would tell exactly what happened and dispel the rumours.
I was wrong. It seems they didn’t care. When CBS’s Scott Pelley asked Logan “Why are you telling this story now?”, she replied:
Logan: One thing that I am extremely proud of that I didn’t intend is when my female colleagues stood up and said that I’d broken the silence on what all of us have experienced but never talk about.
Pelley: What did they mean by that?
Logan: That women never complain about incidents of sexual violence because you don’t want someone to say, “Well women shouldn’t be out there.” But I think there are a lot of women who experience these kinds of things as journalists and they don’t want it to stop their job because they do it for the same reasons as me – they are committed to what they do. They are not adrenaline junkies you know, they’re not glory hounds, they do it because they believe in being journalists.
Ok, hate campaigns against other races and religions were no motivation for Logan to speak out. She’s in her own right not to care about it. But if that is the real reason why she’s talking now, she didn’t hurry to service the cause of fighting violence against women and violence against journalists.
For years, I’ve worked in conflict zones alongside brave female journalists from different countries. I never heard from them anything about keeping a code of silence in case they were raped. As women and as journalists, they know that the first thing you have to do when you suffer an aggression is to denounce it, to break the silence, to gather attention and point at the perpetrators to expose them publicly. Keeping quiet will just help them to get away with it and go for the next woman or journalist.
Take NYT’s photographer Lynsey Addario, who was captured and sexually harrassed along several days in March by Moammar Gaddafi’s men in Libya, and who spoke out immediately after her release.
And as women do, we journalists know that, in order to keep credibility and avoid falling into crying wolf situations, to really help to protect our colleagues and ourselves, we have to be very accurate and serious in our accounts. Ambiguity doesn’t correspond to that. Nor misportraying the facts.
So my hopes that she and the CBS would do their best to correct all mistakes were vain. Those Logan’s admirers who messagged me think her latest testimony proves me and my witnesses totally wrong (they put it in stronger words, of course). They’re naturally in their right to believe whatever they want to believe. You can have faith in anything you want.
BUT I BELIEVE MY EYES. AND MY WITNESSES’
Lara Logan went through a horrible experience. My initial reaction when this happened was to point out that attacks like that one had been occurring to others and that “I don’t think the leading organisers in Tahrir did anything to dispel the rumours spread by State TV, about foreigners and journalists plotting against Egypt and to manipulate the Revolution”. I recognised that “Individual protesters did a lot to help us when we were harassed by these paranoid vigilantes” but “there was no organised effort to explain the situation to the people in the square and make it safer for foreigners”. For this reasons, I wrote, “it seems a bit late to say sorry to Lara Logan. And there are others who should receive apologies for what they went through, but their names aren’t so well-known”.
Later on, my concern went to the way the CBS chose to present the story and its consequences as it gave ammunition to racist and sexist speech. Many bigots were happy to use it to describe Muslim and Egyptian men in unacceptable terms. Some also said Logan and any female journalist should stay away from difficult reporting tasks.
I wrote what I and other witnesses saw. Nothing else. In prudent terms for I hoped Logan and the CBS would be happy to take in consideration an account from direct witnesses and clarify what happened. I admitted the shortcomings of the piece: I couldn’t find anyone who could tell me what happened before I first saw her. But we got the story from that point till the end.
According to Logan, soon after the assault started…
“And I feel them tearing at my clothing. I think my shirt, my sweater was torn off completely. My shirt was around my neck. I felt the moment that my bra tore. They tore the metal clips of my bra. They tore those open. And I felt that because the air, I felt the air on my chest, on my skin. And I felt them tear out, they literally just tore my pants to shreds. And then I felt my underwear go. And I remember looking up, when my clothes gave way, I remember looking up and seeing them taking pictures with their cell phones, the flashes of their cell phone cameras.”
That’s horrible. I wish no woman in the world had to go through that. And I actually add action to my words as a journalist, having extensively reported on women’s rights and violence against women (including the most shocking rapes you can imagine) from many countries (Eastern D.R. of Congo, Lebanon, Syria, South Africa, Iran, India, Mexico and others; these issues are a leading concern in my three published books on Mexico, Iran, and Africa).
When I saw her, I perceived in her clothes little trace of what she describes. An uneven top, likely due to the harsh groping she doubtlessly suffered. Maybe it happened later, but…
My interviewees saw the same in her clothes. These are people who followed her and helped her until she was delivered to the soldiers. I narrated that already.
“And I almost fell into the lap of this woman on the ground who was head to toe in black, just her eyes, I remember just her eyes, I could see”.
“It was about their women and that was what saved me, I think. The women kind of closed ranks around me”.
“And I remember one or two, maybe three men standing with them and throwing, the women were throwing water in the crowd. And they were pouring water over me, ’cause I couldn’t breathe. You know I was I was rasping.”
“Finally some soldiers fought their way through the crowd with batons, beating the mob back”.
“That one soldier that I was holding onto, he threw me over his back and they still had to beat the mob back to get through it, back to the tank, where they had more soldiers.”
So, Logan stays in line with the story that she was saved by women and soldiers “who fought their way through”, though changing the CBS’s communiqué’s version by adding that men actually helped her too. So after all, not every Muslim and Egyptian man is a beast, as those racists have been yelling. Probably her real saviours (all of them young Egyptian men) should feel grateful for this final, limited acknowledgement.
My witnesses saw no women getting involved. I personally find it hard to believe that in such a frenzy, the wild male beasts she describes would have stopped just because a few of “their women”, as she puts it, “closed ranks” around the almost-naked sexy blonde woman who was in their raping hands. By the end of the interview, Logan states: “I had no idea how endemic that it is so rife, so widespread, that so many Egyptian men admit to sexual harassing women and think it’s completely acceptable. In fact, blame the women for it.” But according to her, it was the worst of these bestial men who let their precious pray go only because a few women threw water against them.
Also, my witnesses said no soldiers came out of their military post. It was young men –including two of my interviewees– who formed a protective human chain around her and took her to the military post. She was saved by physical force, not by some mystic liquid aura of “their women”.
Some people have dismissed my witnesses as random guys who could have said anything, and even participated in the attack.
I totally stand by my witnesses. I didn’t find them some other day, asking anyone were you there by chance, sir? I saw them right there, during the assault. I got to know well each one of them. I even got to know their sweet mothers and sisters when they invited me over for dinner. I know they are well-meant, honest, educated young men who participated in their revolution hoping to change their corrupt political system. The day after Mubarak fell, they were among those who gave us all a lesson of civism when they started cleaning and painting Tahrir square and Cairo’s downtown. They think kicking out a dictator was not enough, that in order to build a better Egypt everybody has to change atittudes and behave consciously as citizens.
They are kind, respectful and protective. They risked their own safety going into the crowd to save an unknown foreign woman. They don’t think all U.S. American people are blood-thirsty, inmoral invaders. In fact, I saw them honestly befriending and taking under their wing U.S. American journalists and travellers. They are Muslim, Egyptian men. Neither them nor their countrymen deserve to be insulted by racists, nor to be misportrayed by the fans of the person they helped to save.
For my Bostonian witness I stand as well. I met him early in the days of the uprising, a warmly-mannered young tourist who chose to leave aside his pleasure travels to be near the Egyptians as they fought for freedom.
Besides, I wasn’t the only international journalist who witnessed this. But I’m probably the only one who has absolutely nothing at stake here, as my professional field is away from the US media market and there is no way I can benefit or be damaged by this discussion. In this case, I’ve got a freedom of speech others can’t afford.
WHAT’S IN A RAPE
It was really terrible what they did to Lara Logan and I totally believe she thought she was going to die.
She also says: “All I could feel, was their hands raping me over and over and over again.”
Is this rape? It is, according to international definitions. LA Weekly discussed the issue and agreed that “The widest definition of rape in international law was provided by the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda, which stated that rape consists of a physical invasion of a sexual nature, committed on a person under coercive circumstances. Sexual violence, including rape, is not limited to physical invasion of the human body and may include acts that do not involve penetration or even physical contact.”
That’s right. This a very important definition that helps us to fight the worst kind of violence against women in Africa, it is relevant far beyond what happened in Tahrir and I’m definitely not going to question it.
But it can be argued that there are different kinds of rape. “Hand raping” is not what they meant for rape when they denounced it as Muslim brutality (as if it wasn’t committed by Christians in U.S. cities everyday). They meant gang rape with forceful penus penetrations, perpetrated in the most important square of the country’s capital before hundreds of persons.
Let me go back to Lynsey Addario’s account of her own ordeal, one that (think what you want, this is obvious) was a lot more terrorising that Logan’s:
“One man grabbed her breasts – the start of a pattern of sexual harassment she endured over the ensuing 48 hours.
‘There was a lot of groping,’ she said. ‘Every man who came in contact with us basically felt every inch of my body short of what was under my clothes.’
As she was being driven away from Ajdabiya, she said another of her captors stroked her head and told her repeatedly that she was going to be killed.
‘He was caressing my head in this sick way, this tender way, saying, ‘You’re going to die tonight. You’re going to die tonight’, she added.”
Did Addario say she was raped by their hands? Does the fact that she didn’t use the R word make this less awful? Did she wait to give a detailed account until months after her female colleagues told her she’d broken the code of silence? And a bit on the sides, did she fly to the U.S. next morning and get her media company to annouce she’d been interned in a hospital for several days, and that she’d spend weeks off work recovering?
(That’s another curious thing: Did the CBS set up a private jet with medical attention to fly her back? Otherwise, an EgyptAir direct flight would put Logan in the US 12 hours after departure… but EgyptAir had suspended operations at the time and I can’t find other direct flights. So I found for her a British Airways flight that takes, minimum, 14 hours, changing planes in London, something awful for someone who allegedly required three…? or four days in hospital? It’s not clear when she was interned but reports put her out by the 16th.)
I think Addario’s account is what it should be: a concise, honests, sober and timely denounce of these men’s aggression. She is a real war reporter and possibly, she was freer to behave professionally as she’s not tied to the chains of being a media celebrity.
A CBS’S SECURITY FAILURE
I know that many of Logan’s fans are unhappy about my stance, but it is based on what we saw and none of us has reason to lie. I think that, if they so much love Logan, they are aiming at the wrong target. They should ask themselves, instead, how come this aggression could happen, after all?
I’ve already pointed at the protesters failures, in my first post on this issue. But there were important failures on the part of the CBS, as well.
There is a very important rule all journalists in difficult grounds know: be discreet. And this is doubly meaningful for women working in dangerous environments, be it a New York dead alley or a Middle Eastern war zone.
My female colleagues do amazing jobs when they’re reporting in conflict areas. This is just obvious but needs to be stated only because Logan’s admirers might accuse me of thinking the opposite. Anyway, female journalists in conflict zones naturally tend to protect themselves. Specially those who, like me, work independently and have no big budgets, no crews preparing the ground for them, no fixers explaining the situation to them, moving them around and providing them with the right contacts, no bodyguards, no drivers. But even those who are supported by all this machinery prefer to keep a low profile. When in Rome do as Romans do and almost every female journalist I’ve seen reporting from the Middle East wouldn’t go out to work dressed to kill.
What kind of environment was Logan getting into?
It was a badly lit, densely-packed area.
An uncontrolled crowd was celebrating a historic victory, just like after a World Cup final match.
Many of these people may not have been your regular protester, but hooligan types who decided to join the party.
There was a real danger of Mubarak infiltrators trying to spoil everything.
We all journalists were aware of this. Logan had little experience of Tahrir but at least her bosses and companions should have known.
So if the show must go on (this is celebrity TV, at the end), and the CBS reporter really, really had to get into all this in her most attractive looks, and if they believed Egyptian and Muslim men were all sexual beasts, why didn’t the CBS take every measure to protect her? How was she so easily separated from her crew? How come the CBS exposed her star figure to mob violence and rape?
“I have one arm on Ray. I’ve lost the fixer, I’ve lost the drivers. I’ve lost everybody except him. And I feel them tearing at my clothing.”
“When I lost Ray, I thought that was the end. It was like all the adrenaline left my body. ‘Cause I knew in his face when he lost me, he thought I was gonna die”.
Shocking. I believe her. And I feel her fear because I’ve been in situations where you feel strange mobs are going to kill you (contrary to some Dan Abrams who’s riskiest task –Wikipedia says— was reporting from a Holland’s court house but who dares to call me a “yellow journalist” from his comfy desk). I know well how it is to feel you’re going to die, in a far-away country, by the hands of people whose language you don’t even understand. Lara Logan didn’t need to go through a real experience of threat-to-life in conflict. This could have been prevented if the CBS had taken the situation more seriously.
I believe that our professionalism as journalists will help to pave the way to understanding between peoples. That is, the way to peace.
I believe that correct and precise accounts of aggressions against women and against journalists are neccesary if we want to effectively fight them.
I expressed my hope that the attack against Logan would help Egyptians to spark a positive debate (as opposed to a negative debate full of bigotry) about violence against women and machismo.
This won’t happen, though, if Muslim and Egyptian bigots (who do exist too, of course, no less than in the U.S.) are able to dismiss denounces of rape and violence against women as Western fabrications. This is a very delicate matter, of course. So let’s give it the serious treatment it deserves.
PS: Some of my newly-gained haters have tried to dismiss my account as given by a nobody. That shouldn’t be a problem, what matters is the content. But anyway, why should I expect them to know my work? They don’t read in languages other than English, do they? And they obviously don’t read too much, they get their information from the TV and five minutes of international news in the night show gives them all they always wanted to know about the big big world. Plus Dan Abrams’ celebrity blogs, of course.
NOTE: The comments window will be open for seven days from this date.
There is a French report written by a reporter who interviewed one of the soldiers that Lara describes in her account – with neither being aware the other has corroborated their individual account. The French reporter also interviewed an Egyptian doctor who was in the area of the women, that Lara describes as rescuing her. This doctor reports he also saw the aftermath of what Lara went through and was instrumental in helping defend Lara against the mob. These two individuals corroborate Lara’s story…that she was viciously stripped, beaten, and raped.
Should we ignore those eyewitness testimonies as they do not fit with your narrative?
Of course not. Do as you please. But you would help providing links to those stories. In this century, we can quickly sustain our statements with the appropriate links.
Here is the link to the French report Trent was talking about.
This is the link with the interview to the young egyptian doctor who helped Lara.
Im confussed how is possible that something that happened in a square with thousands of people everybody tells a different story?¿?
Actually, that is not at all uncommon – witness testimony can certainly be colored based on perception and what one thinks one saw versus what one actually saw. Being within a mob situation, with limited light, and deafening noise…one can miss pretty significant events unless one is right on top of it – as evidenced by Lara’s initial attack and the fact the mob inadvertently fell over a group of women.
Temoris, you contradict yourself throughout this post. If Lara was not attacked, as you assert your witnesses state, then the rest of your commentary on how you feel for Lara’s experience becomes meaningless. Why would she fear death or experience the terror she describes if the event occurred as you assert it did? Either she is lying, which you believe she is, and quite a few individuals are covering up for this lie….or the events she described are accurate.
It seems to me your whole beef with her is the fact that right-wing idiots decided to use the attack to bolster their own agenda. Lara never blamed Islam…in fact, she never mentioned the word “muslim” within her narrative. She didn’t blame the protest as a whole, or make any denigrating comments about race or religion.
You are holding her responsible for what other people did….which I might add is why rape and sexual assault is rarely reported, because people hold the victim responsible for the actions of the perpetrators.
You are also upset that CBS sat on the story, and Lara’s account did not jive with what you believe happened. How is that Lara’s fault? CBS was not going to go public with the story at all until reporters from the AP started asking questions. How many interviews as Lara given? How many appearances where she has discussed what happened? If, as you assert, this is all some ploy to boost ratings or whatever, then why is she not talking? How about the “medical sources” that confirmed her injuries, that they were the result of aggressive pinching, beating, etc. and not bite marks as originally asserted? Shall we discount their testimony? There is the French report that I mentioned – are they part of the “conspiracy?”
When watching the interview, one can see the trauma that Lara went through – she is not “fixed,” and she is still struggling with the issue, as can be readily seen as she tells her story. For what possible purpose can someone who has spent 18 years reporting frontline combat experiences, has been shot at, and been in scores of risky situations have for promoting such a lie? Especially since it is apparent she is not promoting the story at all. Her behaviors thus far are classic trauma survivor…not gloryhound.
I am curious what your own agenda might be to try and push a different story?
Thanks for the link, Trent, I’ll take a look soon. But first I’d like to reply to your comments:
“If Lara was not attacked, as you assert your witnesses state”: Please, read again. I saw her being attacked.
“Lara never blamed Islam etc etc”. I know. If you read again, what concerns me is the fact that they didn’t seem to care for the consequences of the version they provided, which were soon apparent as the “right-wing idiots decided to use the attack to bolster their own agenda”.
“You are holding her responsible for what other people did….which I might add is why rape and sexual assault is rarely reported, because people hold the victim responsible for the actions of the perpetrators”: That’s unfair from your part. I’m not holding the victim responsible for any rape. No where in my three posts you can find that. I hoped Logan and CBS would stop the bigotry by timely clarifying what happened.
“You are also upset that CBS sat on the story, and Lara’s account did not jive with what you believe happened. How is that Lara’s fault?” I’ve always said that I hope EITHER Logan or CBS would make this clarification. This is not again Logan. This is for fairness and truth.
“If, as you assert, this is all some ploy to boost ratings or whatever…” Show me where I asserted that.
“How about the “medical sources”” Medical sources is equal to nothing. I’ll check your link to see what this doctor said, as finally we would have a medical source with a name.
“conspiracy?” That’s your word, again.
“When watching the interview, one can see the trauma that Lara went through – she is not “fixed,” and she is still struggling with the issue, as can be readily seen as she tells her story” You are free to believe her. Cool. But you and me know TV very well. And all this celebrity making up. And tears on the screen.
“For what possible purpose can someone…” I’m not speculating on that. My concerns have been clearly stated.
“I am curious what your own agenda might be to try and push a different story?” I’m curious about yours too. We’re even.
“ Please, read again. I saw her being attacked.”
Ok, fair enough. So let me ask you, Temoris, do you believe Lara is being forthright in her story or do you think she is fabricating the level and intensity of the attack?
“You are free to believe her. Cool. But you and me know TV very well. And all this celebrity making up. And tears on the screen.”
Which considering the experience she went through is a perfectly rational and normal reaction. I am curious, though, Temoris…do you see Lara as a “true journalist” or do you see her as something else entirely?
“I am curious what your own agenda might be to try and push a different story?” I’m curious about yours too. We’re even.”
That is also a fair question. My agenda is pretty straightforward, which you are free to accept or not. For the past 14 years, I have been a counselor who specializes in trauma and survivor issues. My clients include veterans who have returned from conflicts to survivors of brutal crimes such as Lara’s. Throughout my work, I have seen and heard how dismissive people can be toward survivors of sexual assault not to mention how filled with shame and second-guessing the survivors are following their attacks. My interest in the Logan case is two-fold. First and foremost is validating what she has experienced as being “real,” and not part of an ulterior motive on her part.
The clients I work with struggle on a daily basis within their own private lives….I cannot even imagine how difficult it must be for Lara to have her struggle publicized to the level it has become. I suppose the argument can be made that is the price one pays for being nationally-known, but she did not ask for this attack to happen, and I imagine if it was up to her, all of the attention would just go away. But I do not see that happening either.
The second reason I am interested is because of the message she sends to other women and men who have been victimized. Rape and sexual assault are under-reported crimes, because of the fear that what is happening to Lara will happen to them if they file a report about their attacks. The victims simply do not want to deal with the looks, the stares, and the recriminations – when they are already beating the heck out of themselves for the attack. It should not be that way. A terrible crime was committed against Lara and she survived it.
It is my hope that she will be given the space to heal from that crime without being taken through the ringer again and again. Her stance against sexual violence could empower others to step forward and perhaps we can start tearing down those walls of reproach we invariably surround survivors with.
Trent, are you sure the French interview corroborates Logan’s version? You’re not reading, man.
1- There was an aggression. That’s for sure. But this detailed account does not mention anything of an stripped Logan with horrible wounds. Rather, they focus on the soldier’s wounds!!! Wow, that’s weird, indeed.
2- The CBS’s first communiqué describes 20 soldiers saving Logan. In her interview, she mentions “some soldiers fought their way through the crowd with batons, beating the mob back”. But what do they say in this report? “The young soldier decided to ‘crash against the crowd’ and, not minding being hit, he managed to get to the terrified journalist”. Then, “Ahmed (this soldier) lifts her on his back and takes her to his (military) car”. It is when she’s already in the car that other soldiers are mentioned to help stop the crowd. So, what happened to the other 19 soldiers who fought their way through the crowd?
3- Omar, the doctor, missed almost all of the action. He doesn’t say anything about Logan’s physical appearance.
4- Did they mention somewhere the word rape? If they did, I totally missed it. Rather, they call it sexual harassment. Which we all know took place.
5- I interviewed my witnesses and starting debating this soon after the awful events. Logan spoke two and a half months later. And this story is dated May 3rd… rather too late, no? The structure of the story, furthermore, is based on Logan’s account, they quote the interview all the time to tell us what happened. This means this not independent or, as you say, “with neither being aware of the other”. I don’t know whether Logan, or someone, or you were aware of the French when they were preparing this, but they were evidently aware of Logan’s version.
6- So this is not convincing but for those who are already convinced. And I still believe my witnesses a lot more than this testimonies.
Please, read better. And make sure your counter-arguments prove what you say they prove and not otherwise.
“There was an aggression. That’s for sure. But this detailed account does not mention anything of an stripped Logan with horrible wounds. Rather, they focus on the soldier’s wounds!!! Wow, that’s weird, indeed.”
Yes, the reporter discussed the injuries the soldier received – which confirms that soldiers had to fight their way to Lara. However, please note the reporter also notes the soldier “decided to “compete in the job and, despite the blows, manages to reach the frightened journalist, he found naked, her clothes torn violently unleashed by the hands of furious men. “ (Le jeune soldat décide de « foncer dans le tas » et, malgré les coups, parvient à atteindre la journaliste effrayée, qu’il retrouve nue, les vêtements violemment arrachés par les mains déchainées d’hommes surexcités). Again, this infers that she was not simply jostled, but violently attacked.
“2- The CBS’s first communiqué describes 20 soldiers saving Logan. In her interview, she mentions “some soldiers fought their way through the crowd with batons, beating the mob back”. But what do they say in this report? “The young soldier decided to ‘crash against the crowd’ and, not minding being hit, he managed to get to the terrified journalist”. Then, “Ahmed (this soldier) lifts her on his back and takes her to his (military) car”. It is when she’s already in the car that other soldiers are mentioned to help stop the crowd. So, what happened to the other 19 soldiers who fought their way through the crowd?”
From my perspective, I think given the emotional and mental state Lara was probably in at this point, she probably thought the entire V Corps was rescuing her. Remember that in the interview Lara gave, she also thought she was communicating quite clearly to her husband about the events that had just transpired, but she was completely incoherent. I do not think we should get caught up in the minutia of details, but we should focus on general themes. For example, Lara stated soldiers saved her, the French account confirms that soldiers saved her.
“3- Omar, the doctor, missed almost all of the action. He doesn’t say anything about Logan’s physical appearance.”
I did not get that impression at all. The reporter wrote, “Omar, who witnessed the scene, is in shock. He is preparing to hand him his coat but a young woman removes her black abaya to cover reporter, out of strength.”
“4- Did they mention somewhere the word rape? If they did, I totally missed it. Rather, they call it sexual harassment. Which we all know took place.”
Temoris, the word “rape” has different connotations within our cultures….as well as sexual assault/harassment. Do you recall a story that suggests “98% of foreign women are sexually harassed or assaulted in Egypt?” The authors of the article use such a loose definition for assault/harassment that the study becomes meaningless. What is clear is that the soldier was traumatized and was in tears over what he saw had happened to Lara. He was dismayed that people would commit such violence towards a woman. “How could they do that to a woman? It has nothing to do with the revolution.” Clearly, the soldier is reporting that something of terrible significance happened to Lara.
“5- I interviewed my witnesses and starting debating this soon after the awful events. Logan spoke two and a half months later. And this story is dated May 3rd… rather too late, no? The structure of the story, furthermore, is based on Logan’s account, they quote the interview all the time to tell us what happened. This means this not independent or, as you say, “with neither being aware of the other”. I don’t know whether Logan, or someone, or you were aware of the French when they were preparing this, but they were evidently aware of Logan’s version.”
At the very start of the story, the reporter states her information was gathered soon after the event, in fact, two weeks after the event: “Two weeks later, Omar Weshahy young doctor instead of revolutionary and witnessed the assault, Ahmed Salah me this, the soldier who has destroyed the reporter of a crowd without mercy.” She penned the article she posted on May 3rd, following Lara’s interview, using the information she received from her sources. The information she used was not old, but still fresh in the mind of her sources.
The reporter confirms that Lara did not expect any sort of trouble or danger – in spite of being warned by others. As I stated earlier, Lara felt her experience within combat situations would help her perform adequate threat analysis, but she was wrong. The reporter confirms that Lara was attacked and violated, as stated by her two witnesses. And the reporter confirms that according to her sources, the mob that attacked Lara was NOT a crowd of protesters, but a mob of opportunistic thugs.
As an aside, I note that in your post you mention that you investigated two commercial air carriers that Lara could have used to fly out of Egypt, both of which would have stops in other countries. Lara did not fly out of Egypt on commercial carriers. CBS chartered a private jet to fly her out of Egypt, and there are private jets with more than sufficient range to perform a nonstop flight from Cairo to Washington DC.
“I think given the emotional and mental state Lara was probably in at this point, she probably thought the entire V Corps was rescuing her.”
That’s mere imagination. From 1 soldier to 20 there is a gap too big.
“Temoris, the word “rape” has different connotations within our cultures”
Well noted. Still, this is not supporting there was a rape.
““How could they do that to a woman? It has nothing to do with the revolution.” Clearly, the soldier is reporting that something of terrible significance happened to Lara.”
What happened to Logan was actually of terrible significance. Remember my first post, when I pointed at the protesters’ failure. I took her attack as seriously as it deserves. I also wonder how could they do that to a woman.
“She penned the article she posted on May 3rd, following Lara’s interview, using the information she received from her sources. The information she used was not old, but still fresh in the mind of her sources.”
Look at that website’s contents. It doesn’t look very serious to me. This is an outdated report, rather opportunistic. Like recalling, yeah, I remember these two guys told me something about this, I’ll write it down now for my website.
“CBS chartered a private jet to fly her out of Egypt”
I actually would hope they did. They put her in a horrible situation by misjudging the risk.
I see you wrote a reply above mine. I’ll read it tomorrow, if you don’t mind. Have a nice rest.
Thanks for your story and your responses. I am from NZ and have a daughter teaching in Abu Dhabi. My wife taught in Dubai in the 1980s before I met her. We have both been back there to stay with teacher friends still living there.
When I read Lara’s story (which surfaced in Aust & NZ about a week ago) I was shocked and horrified. I brought it up as a topic on my daughter’s facebook page yesterday. She was telling a story of how a Bedou teacher at her school got angry with her because she could not get access to my daughters classroom to teach her class as the door was locked & that this caused her have to teach her girls in a foyer area where to her horror she was watched by a man.
The point of the story being how careful women have to be in Arab society.
I made the comment on fb that I could not comprehend a US company of CBS stature sending a good looking blonde woman in western clothes to do interviews in an Arab country in a highly emotionally charged and volatile situation – this to me was an act of the worst kind of ignorance and stupidity on their part. I stand by that opinion.
But I thought I should research the situation a bit more as it just seemed too outrageous and it seemed to me that it made for very emotional publicity just a few days before an even more extraordinary story from Abbottabad burst on our screens. Then it seemed to me why the Logan story appeared. I don’t believe I need to add another word.
What I am really saying in my last sentence above, is I am wondering if the release of the Lara Logan story in Australia last week fits into the same mold as this infamous event …
That story caused me shock & horror at the time but then it came out a couple of years later that it was just a story to arouse a predetermined reaction to achieve a predetermine goal.
I am grappling with a massive dose of deja-vu.
I’m not saying this is a pre-fabricated event but I’ve seen so much of that in my journalistic experience that it wouldn’t surprise me. Take Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb’s kidnappings: there’s a lot more than what they’re telling us in that story, more hands manipulating these fanatic fighters who some think, like me, are serving causes different to what they believe. Remember Tonkin. There are hoax big and small, more than we imagine.
Could this be a hoax? I wouldn’t say it is. I wouldn’t discard it either. My job is to take all possibilities in consideration.
I’m not sure whether or not you are aware of this but more than one foreign journalist was attacked that night. From what I understand, there were several female journalists attacked that night.
“‘A friend of mine was on Tahrir Square on the same day, with a foreign reporter,'” says Sarah Naguib, a 25-year-old Egyptian activist, blogger and a freelance journalist. ‘She told me they were surrounded by at least 100 men who started endlessly groping them’. The men became violent as the girls tried to fight back. They managed to get video footage but the foreign journalist is still considering whether she wants her attack made public.”
Have you considered that it’s possible the woman you saw rushed by you for 10 to 15 seconds was not Lara Logan at all but one of the other female journalists groped and attacked in the square that night? How do you know?
Addressing your point about her comment claiming “they raped me with their hands” falling short of rape. I’m not sure if you’re familiar but there is a practice known as “fisting” which involves a man penetrating a woman with his entire hand/fist and wrist/forearm. This would go far beyond being raped with a penis and would explain the internal damage and explain why she didn’t notice being whipped due to the sexual assault. Ms. Logan clearly distinguishes between getting groped and probed and being “raped” with “hands” in the interview. The implication is obvious. She was fully penetrated. It’s easily possible that the attack could have been far worse without a penis involved than with a penis involved. However, she does say she surrendered to the sexual assault (later in the interview) so penile rape isn’t ruled out. I’m not saying all of these things happened. I’m just explaining how naive it seems to me that you think her attack not to be a real rape simply because she focusses on the men using their hands at the beginning. Regardless, either way, I’m sure she suffered greatly and her courage in speaking out is more than admirable.
This woman deserves your respect. It’s not her responsibility to absolve Islam or Egyptian males. It’s not her responsibility to clear up the politics surrounding the event. She merely recounted what she experienced. That’s enough. She’s resumed her career now, after this single interview, and resumed reporting on the CBS Evening News.
Do you really have to describe us what fisting is? We know it. And you can imagine it is no an easy task to perform. If someone could have done that to her in those conditions, so little time and against her will, she’d have her genitalia completely destroyed and would have spent months in hospital in Egypt, she’d not been able to fly.
You are not being serious. You are using any idea that comes to your mind in order to prove her right. And you are not even proving her right for you are saying things she didn’t even suggest. You are inventing your own story.
And the mere fact that you can do this, thinking you found base on her statements, shows why she’d have to be a lot more careful in issues like this.
Look at what you are saying now! Fisting in the middle of the square! Oh my god, no wonder why they can affirm anything about anyone based on anything!
I’m not sure you realize this but fisting is a popular porn fetish and wome accomplish it all the time without physical injury. It’s a common practice among homosexuals and a centuries old method of torturing and humiliating conquered foes. It could have been accomplished far more quickly than penetration with a penis. This being a violent attack, the objective being to humiliate and torture the victim rather than to pleasure themselves, it’s not far fetched that they would have resorted to such a thing. In her interview, she describes her limbs being pulled in every direction while she was nude, to the point that her muscles were torn; you don’t even need to spread a woman’s legs to penetrate her with digits. If she was held in that position for a long time, it was for the purpose of penetrating her with a penis or something larger. I’m sorry to speak frankly like this but, come on, we all know this went further than groping.
I don’t recommend it but a simple Google search will reveal to you that fisting is not that hard to accomplish. Actually, Wikipedia has a decent page on the practice.
I don’t want to talk more about this subject because this may not have happened. I don’t want to start rumors. But, look, even being penetrated with digits… this is a petite woman. There is no way to deny this was a rape.
This was rape.
I have seen and interviewed victims of fisting rape, Nine. I’m not going to amuse you with any description here of how it’s done and the time and conditions it takes. But the damage is enormous.
“I don’t want to talk more about this subject because this may not have happened. I don’t want to start rumors”.
Well… why did you bring it up in the first place?
You’re referring to “fistula” in victims from Congo and Sudan. That’s mostly due to the the use of foreign objects (even shotgun blasts, in some cases). I’m telling you, the practice of “fisting” is not uncommon (people do it to themselves and on purpose) and there are hundreds of porn sites stocked with an endless stream of videos featuring women (and even men) being fisted or fisting themselves. These people survive without injury. For those doing this as recreation, it takes lube (or spit) and a little foreplay (with digits) but someone not concerned with a victim’s welfare wouldn’t have to worry about that sort of thing.
I’m going to concede and hope you’re right that this wasn’t included in the attack. I’m sorry I brought it up.
Digital penetration is plenty horrific and, legally, rape. Also, the woman was beaten severely. None of this could have happened to the woman you saw before you saw her. The woman you saw was fully clothed and somewhat composed. I’m guessing that you saw one of the other journalists assaulted that night since Lara clearly claims her pants were torn to shreds before she lost contact with her chief bodyguard (she also had two Egyptians with her as drivers/security, a producer, a fixer and a cameraman). Either you saw someone else or one of you is making things up. Seeing the footage of the beginning of the attack, I’m inclined to believe her story. You, being a well trained and dedicated journalist (thanks for including your credentials elsewhere), I’m inclined to believe you as well. But, the stories do not match. You may have seen a separate incident.
Sorry, for the confusion. My girlfriend wanted to post about the pants (see “kendra” far below) and I let her. I, then, wanted to reply to your post here but forgot to type “nine” again. This last reply was from me, of course.
Fisting and fistula are not the same thing. Fistula is a type of injury which consists of the tearing of the wall between the vagina and the anal cavity. More about that injury can be discovered here:
Did you watch the 60 Minutes Extra segments online? Lara Logan suffered major trauma to her genitals. “Fisting” might be over the top, but in the segments online, she describes talking to a trauma nurse about her injuries.
She’s not super graphic, but the conversation sounds very much like she suffered from a fistula. Go watch that part if you haven’t.
Unless that segment is a complete fabrication, it’s time for you to pack this up. Your witnesses saw something. They didn’t see this.
You can display all the arrogance you want but you are nobody to tell me when to “pack this up”.
There’s nothing in those segments that hasn’t been discussed in this and the previous post on the issue.
* Another account from that night:
“It was only later, as it grew dark and a younger, rowdier element arrived in the square, that the mood shifted to a more sinister undercurrent. These teenagers behaved like football hooligans, charging around in long conga lines. When I got caught in the middle of one particularly boisterous group, they mobbed me and several attempted to grope and fondle my body. For a moment I was nervous – I could see Phil’s head but several bodies were between us – then I got angry and pushed back. Luckily, I managed to wriggle my way out of their grasps.”
* This is from the article by the French journalist others provided:
“Since the fall of Mubarak, Omar was in the hospital for other abused women during Friday demonstrations. So much so he says half-ironic and sincerely sorry: “I’m going to specialize in sexual harassment Tahrir! ”
* For further context, an account from Black Wednesday:
“From behind me I heard someone cry, ‘She is with them. Get her. Get her!’ Before I realized what was happening, my arms were seized by two musclemen who walked me away from the square. All I could hear as the mob closed in on me was: ‘She is with them… with them… the agents…the Americans… Baradei’s dirty supporter.’ Many thugs pulled my hair while others volunteered slaps and slurs. In a matter of seconds my shirt was ripped open and my mouth was full of blood. We passed an army tank and I saw the officer on top. ‘Help!’ I screamed. The soldiers were waiting for his orders. Bystanders called on him. ‘They are going to kill her,’ someone said. All my energies were focused on staying conscious, putting my head up for air and down to avoid further hits. I wrapped my jacket around my body and my shoulder bag, which had my ID and my camera, and cried for the officer’s help again. Finally he ordered the soldiers to jump into the crowd and pull me up.”
* Foreign journalists attacked during the uprising:
What happened to Lara was not at all unusual during this period of unrest. Quit trying to act like she’s claiming some sort of alien abduction. Her attack was one of many that night.
I’m going to help you doing this:
“The protest camp in Tahrir square was a nest of suspicions about foreigners. Everyday, we had a dozen people taking photos and videos of us and questioning us about why we were there. Everyone felt they had the right to check our passports. Even then, they’d accuse us of horrible crimes, like being Israelis. We had to smile and appease them, for we knew that, once they started shouting, the mob would congregate around us and any chance of defending ourselves would be lost. I saw it several times: furious mobs beating up or chasing away someone most people didn’t know anything about.
What happened to Lara Logan and her crew was not an exception. That happened on Feb 11. On the evening of Feb 13, an Arte channel team of four was also attacked in Tahrir, same story. A female journalist was pushed to the ground and her male colleague fell over her. The assaulters broke part of their equipment and tried to steal their camera. The journalists finally reached the military post, where the soldiers put them in a tank until the mob dispersed. Then an officer and four men escorted them to a safer place. I’ve heard of other similar incidents.”
You know who wrote this? Wanna guess?
Myself. Nine, this is a series of three blogposts and in today’s post I’m actually linking to the first post, which is where you’ll find those quotes https://temorisblog.wordpress.com/2011/02/17/tahrir/
If you really want to be honest, read before telling me off. So now we see you fabricate stories without even informing yourself with a bit of thoroughness.
So, you’re kind advice (Quit trying to act like she’s claiming some sort of alien abduction.) is completely misplaced. I know what was happening in Tahrir because I was there. Were you, sir?
You were there that night and you should know what she claims is entirely plausible. But, you are not the only brave soul in the world, sir. There are may brave men of every sort.
“It happened on the night of the 11th february celebrations around mindnight/1am. I was walking home with my friend (we are two foreign girls living in Cairo) through Tahrir, a bunch of guys started following and groping us and we ended up in a huge crowd (around 40-50 guys, not sure) that just grew and grew and they wouldnt let go of us. Thankfully some (true hearted) egyptian men helped us and after a long fight/pulling/pushing they managed to get us to the army checkpoint nearby. If it weren’t for those protecting us it could have ended a lot worse… I’ll be grateful for them forever.”
“But we would be wrong to assume that in controlling Egyptians, Mubarak somehow also kept women safe. In fact, state-sanctioned violence against women was widespread and well documented. For years Egypt has been cited by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International for using rape, torture, and sexual assault to threaten and intimidate female activists who criticized the regime. These tactics were also used against female family members of dissidents. There is also considerable evidence that members of Mubarak’s security forces ordered the assault of female protesters during the recent demonstrations.”
I second what Temoris wrote exactly. Actually, Omar and the soldier have very few direct quotes about the attack, the article is just filled in with the story from Logan’s 60 Minutes interview.
Also, I’m not sure if Rue89 is a great news source, just judging by the other stories they were offering.
They did not go in the tank in Logan’s story. This story sounds like Temoris’s story about the French news crew that were attacked and had to seek shelter in a tank.
I just read a comment from a doctor in this same tent, “First Aid Doctors”, and he said the tent was right near where Logan was and nothing happened. It’s in Arabic, but he says this is false, he was there from beginning to end, and they were in front of him having interviews with Egyptians and not exposed to any kind of harassment or abuse. Also states that soldiers were no where near by and not stationed in the heart of the field.
I believe he is shooting down that condescending part of her story where she gave the false impression that soldiers were nearby, but failed to help. Had to be “convinced” and “finally” showed up.
There is more, but it’s 2am. Good night.
That’s right, soldiers were not stationed in the heart of the field. They were there, allegedly, to help stop thugs’s aggressions against the people in the camp. But there was a struggle between them and the protesters as they were trying to reduce the camp site by slowly pushing their tanks –and Tahrir’s “borderline”– forward. The protesters decided to stand and sit and even sleep just below the tank’s… I lost my English, but what serves as wheels. It was the looting of the Egyptian museum by mysterious hands what gave the army a pretext to establish a post on its grounds, therefore setting up another limit to the protester-held area. They were there when all this happened and that’s where Logan was taken to by his civilian male saviours.
Here, it’s the last one on the page:
Thanks! My Arabic is bad so if anyone can help to provide a translation, it would be great.
Meanwhile, I had to use Google Translation… so this is awful but will give us a glimpse on what this doctor says:
In the name of God the Merciful
First, this correspondence is false because it was Bngti event in front of the headquarters of one First Aid for Doctors
Tahrir Square in particular under the banner was written by the English (people demand
removal of the regime) and the Bngti event from beginning to end, from the place de
Violin and worked for some meetings with the Egyptians and I swear to God it was in front of me because I was a volunteer that
Medical Committee and was not exposed to any kind of harassment or abuse and their word but wanted to show
Magnitude of the suffering experienced by covering news and press releases over the artificial courage .. Military men were
Very far from the field site work because it was the heart of the field, while the army was present on the
The limits of the field .. Violin portrayed in her speech that Alrjalp Barbarians and Egyptians all sixes are Elly
Rescued .. Medicine: What do you save them sixes of his field of editing and violin Ahimna is what I was
Abuse it without the rest of the foreign journalists or the rest of the field of women and enacted the entire period de les
Is not what they say .. Form committed the sin of Laura Josha Ayza and wear in the Egyptian ..
Words, my words went on earlier comments by na
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
اولا هذه المراسلة كاذبة لانها كانت بتغطي الحدث من امام احد مقار الاسعافات الاولية للاطباء بميدان التحرير بالتحديد تحت لافتة كان مكتوب عليها بالانجليزية ( people demand removal of the regime ) و كانت بتغطي الحدث من بدايته لنهايته من المكان ده و كمان عملت لقاءات مع بعض المصريين و اقسم بالله انها كانت امامي لاننى كنت متطوع بتلك اللجنة الطبية و لم تتعرض لاى نوع من انواع التحرش او الايذاء و انما ارادت بكلامها ان تظهر حجم المعاناه التى عانتها لتغطي الخبر و مدى شجاعتها الصحفية المصطنعة .. رجال الجيش كانوا بعيدين تماما عن موقع عملها بالميدان لانها كانت بقلب الميدان فى حين ان الجيش كان متواجدا على حدود الميدان .. كمان صورت فى كلامها ان الرجالة المصريين كلهم همج و الستات هم اللى انقذوها .. طب ازاي الستات تنقذها من رجالة ميدان التحرير و كمان اشمعنا هي اللى تم الاعتداء عليها دون باقى الصحفيات الاجانب او باقى النساء بالميدان و استنت الفترة دي كلها ليه من غير ما تتكلم .. شكلها ارتكبت خطيئة من ورا جوزها و عايزه تلبسها فى المصريين .. استطرد كلامي بكلام تعليقات سابقة لـ na
I heard another story involving one soldier. Who was the man wielding the taser and announcing that they were taking her to the soldiers?
Possibly the army is trying to take credit for rescuing her and inserting themselves into the story?? That’s certainly how it sounds.
If this is true then it makes me sick to my stomach that those respectful, heroic men that saved her have been so discredited. An innocent person could lose their life next time because who would help knowing they will be lied about ?
That’s my feeling too, Katie.
She was clearly raped and beaten severely. My thought is that she was dumped by the women with tubs of water because she was so dirty the men wanted her to be rinsed. The women offered her compassion and began to argue with the gang. It’s unclear how much time passed between when the women began bickering with the attackers and when she was rescued. My thought is that the women left the scene to urge the soldiers to intervene and the soldiers did so because of the influence of these women rather than compassion for Ms. Logan.
Again, Nine? If you want to speculate so freely, at least please read well. Logan is saying they poured water because she was suffocated, what’s that of men thoughtfully wanting to rinse the woman they are raping? How old are you?
That’s her perception. She doesn’t speak Egyptian so how would she know what was being said. She says she nearly fell into the lap of the woman. If they had such a grasp on her then how would she fall away from them? I’m saying that maybe she was dropped there for a reason. Dropped in front of tubs of water. I’m saying it could be that the men thought it would help to rinse her off and that the women reacted by throwing water at the men and yelling at them. She did say she was covered in filth. I don’t think this line of reasoning is far fetched at all.
I’m probably older than you.
Temoris, Did you study Journalism in college or did you just sort of start taking pictures and wander into Journalism with no formal training?
I’d like to recommend Truth In History by Oscar Handlin as a supplement to your experience because “experience” is a poor and unreliable teacher that can often foster prejudice. I’m not trying to sound as condescending as you often do; I’m seriously just hoping you will read the book (and like it) because it’s one of the world’s most important textbooks ever written for journalists and historians. There is no substitute for education. Why learn everything the hard and slow way? Eh?
Your encouragement to “read well” makes me think you only read the transcript of her interview. I’d like to encourage you to watch it for yourself, to look into her eyes and to watch her burst into tears, before you judge her a liar.
“That’s her perception. She doesn’t speak Egyptian so how would she know what was being said.”
So your perception is better than hers and you do speak “Egyptian” (how well you know the topic, man)
“I’m probably older than you.”
That doesn’t show.
“makes me think you only read the transcript of her interview”
I saw the video first. Then I went to the transcription to make sure I understood well. English is not my mother language. Even if it was, I considered it better regarding how delicate the issue is.
I wasn’t contradicting her account. I was merely explaining that what she saw was: herself landing near the woman in black, water being poured on her, water being thrown at the men, women closing ranks about her, soldiers breaking through and rescuing her. Any motive by anyone mentioned is her guess. Her guess is that the women were trying to help her breathe by pouring water on her. She doesn’t go into detail as to why she fell from the grasp of the men. The women could have poured water on her because they didn’t want to touch her without cleaning her up a little bit. Nobody knows exactly why water was poured on her, not even her; just that water was poured on her. It is only known that the people with the water (mainly women) were mad at her attackers and compassionate toward her.
Thanks Trent, I’m happy to hear that I’m talking to a concerned professional. With different approaches, we’ve been dealing with similar issues.
First of all, let me tell you that I consider Logan a victim. She went through a horrendous situation.
She was not the first person I saw being attacked by a mob in Tahrir. She was not the last one. If you go to read my first post on the issue https://temorisblog.wordpress.com/2011/02/17/tahrir/ , you will see that my original concern was about her awful experience and the protesters’ failure in dispelling rumours about foreigners, which put them in danger. I published it immediately after I found news on Logan, when the CBS finally launched it’s communiqué. Part of it sounded weird to me but I wasn’t wondering what consequences this would have, I only wanted to express my main concern.
Then the communiqué became great ammunition for the racists and the sexists. I saw how they were using the communiqué for their hate speech. How its ambiguity (on the nature of the assault) and misportrayal of facts (only women and duty men helping, suggesting all other men were either watching or abusing Logan) served bigotry. I waited several days hoping they would issue a badly needed correction. When this never came, I decided to speak out.
I am an independent journalist, I set my own agenda and I go wherever my professional interest takes me to. And my interest is victims, as yours is. Many kinds of victims. Rape victims too. I must say that I’ve seen the worst kind of rape. I’ve quoted in this post examples of my work related to women and violence against women in several countries. You can find there one on the victims of rape used as a weapon of war in Kivu province, Eastern Congo, described by Humans Rights Watch as the worst place on Earth to be a woman. Dr Dennis Mukwekwe’s Panzi Hospital in Bukavu is certainly one of the most shocking places you can ever see, crowded with women whose genitalia has been totally destroyed on purpose by throngs of men.
So, dismissive towards victims is definitely not a word that can be applied to me. Contrary to that, I deeply value them. What I’m looking for in victims is that strength that helps them to rise above their suffering, face life again and even struggle to change reality for better. I took a wonderful picture in Cambodia of a kid who lost three limbs by a landmine explosion and is himself exploding with joy, playing with a smiley Spanish medical volunteer.
The fact that I’m sensitive to victims, though, doesn’t mean that I think that being a victim allows you to do whatever you want on the basis that you are a victim. Even more when, though unwillingly, your actions are helping to victimise others. I didn’t ask to witness Logan’s assault either, but I did, and I could perceive that something in the way it was presented was hurting people by serving as a base to hate speech. It is my duty to stand up.
She’s not sending the right message, in my eyes, to other women and men who have been victimised. For in the first place, it should be the most accurate message, with the most accurate account of facts. And I believe, on the basis of what I and people whom I trust saw, this is not what happened.
She had a great chance to empower others to step forward. Because she indeed suffered an awful aggression. But you can’t do this twisting facts and, in doing so, promoting hate –even unwillingly.
Last night, I was talking to a friend about this issue, here in Colombia. A friend who’s under death threat and who works with victims of a dirty silent war that is –by the way— partly fueled with US taxpayers’ money.
He said he and many people here lost respect for the Egyptian protesters when they heard a US female reporter had been assaulted and gang raped in the middle of a crowded public square. “How can the heroes do that to a woman?”, he asked. This is how it came out to the world. A whole movement (not a nationality nor a religion, here, but a freedom movement) was discredited by misinformation. And this is likely to have happened in other countries as well.
I too want her to have the space to heal. They said this was the last time she’d speak about this. I don’t expect any correction from her or the CBS so I think this is as far as we got. I’m not asking for a clarification anymore, that’s useless. The damage is done. Muslims, Egyptians and Tahrir protesters have been discredited with tears on primetime. Nothing will change the feelings of millions of US Americans and others who are shocked by this narrative. This blog is nothing compared to a massive audience.
I forgot to link the Cambodian kid’s pic: http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/643209
Lara Logan was in the square that night for the purpose of portraying the revolution as being a huge victory. In footage of her with protestors seen on the interview, she says, “This is freedom!” She has no motive to paint the protestors in a bad light. She’s merely reported what happened to her. At the end of the interview, it’s said that no one knows who her attackers were or what motivated them. What did you expect? Did you want her to accuse someone without knowing who did it? Did you want her to lie and say she knows for sure it was the regime?
What exactly did you expect her to do? What more could she have said?
Temoris, do I think that people have been using Logan’s attack as a platform for absolutely outlandish agendas? You bet I am not sure if you were aware of the Right Wing’s attempt to portray the entire protest movement as an “Islamization” of Egypt, and how the entire country will be one big al Qaeda training camp. If people are going to making accusations of “yellow journalism” , then for me, that is Exhibit A. Journalists like Lara were able to give a much more accurate view because they were in the crowds, they were in the protests, actually talking to the people. I am not sure if Fox sent a single reporter to Egypt, instead they relied on their “talking heads” to issue “commentary and analysis”
So yes, following Lara’s attack, I am not surprised at all by the terrible
“Then the communiqué became great ammunition for the racists and the sexists. I saw how they were using the communiqué for their hate speech. How its ambiguity (on the nature of the assault) and misportrayal of facts (only women and duty men helping, suggesting all other men were either watching or abusing Logan) served bigotry. I waited several days hoping they would issue a badly needed correction. When this never came, I decided to speak out.”
Temoris, do I think that people have been using Logan’s attack as a platform for absolutely outlandish agendas? You bet I am not sure if you were aware of the Right Wing’s attempt to portray the entire protest movement as an “Islamization” of Egypt, and how the entire country will be one big al Qaeda training camp. If people are going to making accusations of “yellow journalism” , then for me, that is Exhibit A. Journalists like Lara were able to give a much more accurate view because they were in the crowds, they were in the protests, actually talking to the people. I am not sure if Fox sent a single reporter to Egypt, instead they relied on their “talking heads” to issue “commentary and analysis”
So yes, following Lara’s attack, I am not surprised at all by the comments made by those who have an agenda. However, Temoris, Lara was attacked by those commentators as well. The same people who blasted the protest movement for the attack on Lara also blasted Lara for being there at all – they blamed her for “trusting Muslims” and “she has shown sympathy for Muslims in the past, I hope she enjoyed the attack,” and equally outrageous comments. But these actions are not the fault of Lara’s, nor should they be her responsibility. For me, she has one responsibility, and only one: To heal.
Now, people like you and I do have a moral responsibility, I believe, to counter the assertions of those who would use Lara as a tool. I have no problem with people challenging statements that denigrate Egypt and the protest movement. We can have that conversation. I am not willing to use Lara in that argument. She has enough to deal with, and to me, countering the prejudice does not mean discounting her attack. I see those as two separate issues.
In my opinion, this attack had nothing to do with the protests, nothing to do with Islam, and nothing to do with Egypt. A few years back, in Seattle during a Mardi Gras celebration, gangs of youth assaulted and raped several women within the crowd. These actions took place in crowded venues that had far, far less people than in Tahir Square. There was one iconic photo captured by a photojournalist that showed the ferocity of the attack: The woman being held and violently stripped of her clothes and raped in a manner similar to what Lara described. Part of that horror was these events happened within yards of law enforcement officers, who were not aware of the unfolding drama because of the press of the crowd and the noise levels. Were these attacks reflective of American values? No – they were crimes of opportunity by thugs and criminals. When I picture Lara’s assault, I see an event similar to what happened in Seattle.
“She’s not sending the right message, in my eyes, to other women and men who have been victimised. For in the first place, it should be the most accurate message, with the most accurate account of facts. And I believe, on the basis of what I and people whom I trust saw, this is not what happened.”
I suppose here is where we disagree, as I see the events Lara describing as being well within the realm of possibility. For me, I believe the statements of a survivor. Period. I will admit that might be part of a bias I have due to the work that I do, however, her actions reflect what I am used to seeing within recently traumatized individuals.
Was I there? No…but I do know how easy it is to miss information within a mob situation and I can recognize a traumatized individual when I see one. Two months after the assault, Lara is still displaying signs of that trauma, and I do not know of a reason why she would embellish that story and fake the symptoms. What would be the purpose? I would question if she was on the talk show circuit day in and day out describing “the horror,” but she is not doing that – she is going out of her way to avoid talking about it.
“He said he and many people here lost respect for the Egyptian protesters when they heard a US female reporter had been assaulted and gang raped in the middle of a crowded public square. “How can the heroes do that to a woman?”, he asked. This is how it came out to the world. A whole movement (not a nationality nor a religion, here, but a freedom movement) was discredited by misinformation. And this is likely to have happened in other countries as well.”
I would disagree that the freedom movement lost its luster as a result of Lara’s attack. In the States, there have been quite a few large protests involving the labor movement. People within those protests have been using Cairo as motivation. I would say that the majority of Americans see the revolution in Egypt in generally positive terms, and they recognize the attack as being the work of thugs, and not reflective of the protest as a whole. However, I would agree that people are trying to tarnish the movement, but they are using Lara as just one tool. We should engage those individuals who seek to promote that divisiveness, but engage them directly – I do not think we should engage them by trying to cast doubts on Lara’s attack, as that is arguing their point.
With that being said, I am appalled that Lara and other journalists have been attacked at all. I have always had profound respect for journalists as a whole because they are the means of knowing what events are happening in the world. These past few months seem to have been rather hard on the journalism field, and to say I salute the bravery displayed by the foreign correspondents and journalists is an understatement.
To me, attacking a journalist for doing her job the way that Lara has been attacked is nonsensical…especially since I often hear complaints from people that today’s journalist doesn’t “find the story.” Well, sometimes that story can be dangerous and when journalists perform their duty and they are injured as a result, they should be lauded in the same manner that we honor veterans of our armed forces who are injured in the line of duty.
With that being said, please keep your head down, but your camera primed…and keep your wits about you. And thank you for the service you perform for the rest of us.
“But these actions are not the fault of Lara’s, nor should they be her responsibility. For me, she has one responsibility, and only one: To heal.”
I wish Logan could get justice. And the other people who went through similar ordeals in Tahrir. And healing. How can she heal when the way she and/or the CBS chose to portray the events has been so usesful to fill in those nasty hate agendas? Look Trent, I’m not happy with the whole issue. I’m not happy in my role of saying: “Sorry, no, this is not what we saw”. It is my duty to do it, though, as I was there and so I have to stand up to oppose this racist and sexist speech by pointing at what I know: that it’s basis is flawed.
“I am not willing to use Lara in that argument.”
I’m not using Logan. They are using her. Because willingly or unwillingy she provided them with the basis of their argument.
“For me, I believe the statements of a survivor”.
That’s right, Trent. We follow different methods. Your goal is to provide survivors with healing. My goal is to find out what really happened. Victims lie. Many times unconsciously. Other times because they are pushing for what they perceive as justice, or fair retribution, or compensation, or… there are many motives. It’s sad but true. So, as a journalist, I have no choice but to find out what’s behind what they’re telling me. I wish I could give victims credit but experience has taught me that sometimes blindly believing them can cause more trouble and unjustice.
“What would be the purpose?”
I refuse to speculate on that. This is already too bad as to add up speculations on anyones motives.
“I do not think we should engage them by trying to cast doubts on Lara’s attack”.
I’m not trying to cast doubts, Trent. We saw it happening.
At the end our differing approaches to the issue seem to come out from our different proffessional goals.
And Trent, on the other hand… What was first, the victim or the failure?
I wish to know what you think about what in my post I’m describing as a CBS’s security failure that exposed Logan… is that original sin relevant to you somehow?
“And Trent, on the other hand… What was first, the victim or the failure?
I wish to know what you think about what in my post I’m describing as a CBS’s security failure that exposed Logan… is that original sin relevant to you somehow?”
Temoris, that is the million dollar question. Clearly, Lara and her team underestimated what could happen. I have never been to Egypt, so my experience with that culture stems from my own reading and trying to stay informed. I have no idea how a crowd that size moves and breathes in Egypt….as I do not know the culture. I can tell you how a similar crowd in say, Times Square would behave, as I am familiar with that culture. I have been in crowds within the USA that at first glance would be very similar to what Lara was experiencing in Tahir Square. I think it is rather telling that Lara described her initial assessment of the scene in terms she was familiar with: A big party. It was like the Super Bowl. A massive celebration. Lara is used to reporting from actual combat situations, and it is possible, if not likely, the team’s past experiences of being in real, “we are going to get blown-up” situations probably colored their impression that the Tahir Crowd would be extremely tame and quiet.
I do not think for a second they thought there was going to be any true danger, save for a pickpocket or the random grope – again like she described. Was that assessment realistic? I do not know….and I am sure that Lara and her team are beating themselves over the head with the second-guessing and self-recriminations. I think given the fact they thought they would be in a situation similar to what they have experienced in Times Square lead them to conclude that the security they had would have been more than sufficient….and for a brief time, it was. Could it have been prevented? I am not so sure…..given the situation and the chaos, I do not think the outcome would have been that different, save for her not being on the Square at all. And quite frankly, I do not see her as willing to forego that opportunity.
Does that answer your question?
It does. Thanks Trent.
They did underestimate it. And I think that was a big mistake. We won’t blame them for what the perpetrators did, they’re guilty and it is a shame that they won’t be brought to justice. But everyone who had a little experience in those days Tahrir would know it was highly risky, and a lot more for someone who goes into that crowd dressed for the show. I don’t think that was a good idea. But if she had to do it, the CBS should have made a correct risk assesment and provided her with adequate security.
I am Julia and I am one of the people who dismissed your witnesses in your original post. However, after watching that 60 Minutes interview, I am rescinding all of my comments and no longer dismissing your witnesses. Her racism and malicious intent really came out in that interview. Regardless of what happened to her, sexual assault does not grant you the right to rile up people’s racism and enact revenge on entire groups of people. She has no idea who attacked her. The Square was opened to all Egyptians that evening. From my understanding, it was like a tourist attraction. Also, I checked and Logan did write the CBS communique (press release).
I greatly apologize for so harshly criticizing you. The situation was very confusing at first. This journalist Logan was manipulating my empathy for sexual assault victims and I have a lot (clearly). What you were saying was easily interpreted as the typical victim-blaming and second guessing of a sexual assault victim. And I wasn’t even a fan of this journalist, I was just trying to find out what happened since there were so many conflicting stories back in February and it was aggravating. You were saying very little happened, so of course the reaction was that you were denying the word of sexual assault victim.
And there is nothing yellow about Temoris’s journalism. I think there may be some translation issues when writing in English, it being a second language for him. He may not notice some things sound offensive considering sexual assault is a sensitive topic. When reading his actual articles in Spanish, they are well-written. And he goes out of his way to photograph women in these revolutions, which is a lot more than most journalists do.
Thanks so much, Julia. This means that we can listen to each other and try to understand. Fueling racism and sexism does exactly the opposite. I recognise the bravery of acknowledging a misjudgement.
Thank you, as well, for pointing at something I could only suspect: that because I’m writing in a language foreign to me, “He may not notice some things sound offensive considering sexual assault is a sensitive topic.” It is true that it is highly sensitive. And subtleties in language are tricky.
How did she fuel racism in any way during her interview? I’m at a loss for how you could interpret anything she said in that way.
Thank you, julia
I appreciate it
You are welcome and, again, sorry. If it is any consolation, I don’t know a single person who followed this Lara Logan story. If they heard about it from the initial press release, I have made sure to clear it up.
Just a note, but sexual assault has nothing to do with “sexual frustration” (the addendum to the “Stripped…” article from Agnes Rajacic). That is a dated excuse. Sexual assault is like other assaults that involve torture – it’s about power. Controlling, punishing, humiliating, just sadistically trying to get a reaction from someone, etc… I assure you that the male protesters sleeping next to women protesters in Tahrir Square were very sexually frustrated, but they did not sexually harass the women. It is a personality type. In Egypt, there is no punishment for sexual harassment, so it is something these men probably do when they are bored, for entertainment or just when there is opportunity – like a celebration.
I hope Agnes can drop by to explain her point about frustration.
But it is totally true what you say about lack of punishment for sexual harassment in Egypt. As I said, originaly, when Logan’s attack went to the news, I hoped this incident would spark a debate in this country about women’s rights. But this won’t happen if they feel unfairly attacked.
And to help others find my latest photosets on women of the revolution, here are the links for Egypt and Lybia
I have very often spoken to “witnesses” of crimes (and other events) and heard starkly conflicting information. Even for this incident, here on the Internet, there have been many claiming falsely to have witnessed the event. I’ve encountered dozens of fabricated testimonies while researching this case. Clearly, from reviewing the footage provided by CBS for the interview, a person could have been ten feet away from this incident and completely oblivious to what was happening to her. I’m sorry but her first-hand testimony outweighs any given by your Facebook friends, Temoris. It also outweighs whatever you think you saw that night. It could be that you are right and she is wrong… like it could be that monkeys are about to fly out of my butt.
You’re a believer, Nine. Be happy.
You mean that as an insult, implying that I’m gullible or naive. I think that’s the funniest thing in this thread. I’m the skeptic here, my friend. You just don’t like it that I’m being more skeptical of you than her. It’s not wisdom or “experience” causing you to lash out like this; it’s pride and stubbornness.
You know good and well that you saw very little, if anything, concerning this incident. There is no way you could identify the woman you saw rushed by you in the dark surrounded by an angry mob. Claiming you know exactly what she looked like, what she was wearing and how she was behaving is absurd. You’re not an especially tall man, how did you see over all those men? You had your back turned buying a snack until the last second. How did you see her hair color or her wardrobe or her pants? Come on.
They saw Lara Logan brought in to the compound: “They beat the $#!% out of her.” They also saw Anderson Cooper, who despite being “punched in the head!” seemed none the worse for wear.
This by the way, is testimony given by a Marine Sergeant after speaking to Marines who met Lara Logan at the U.S. Embassy in Egypt after she was raped but before she was flown out of the country. These Marines said about Lara, “They beat the $#!% out of her.” Obviously, more than a little groping.
Did you actually write…
“they’d accuse us of horrible crimes, like being Israelis.”
Whoa! So much for objective journalism.You didn’t’t even qualify that statement or put it into any context.
Temoris, you are very well spoken, and in a foreign language no less, and I can respect that element of your writing. But the idea that you are relying so heavily on two very fleeting eyewitness accounts that took place after and away from the alleged crime scene is beyond unprofessional. You are far from objective and are filling in many of your own gaps with pure uninformed speculation.
For example, a real journalist wouldn’t dare make comment on the accusation above of forced fisting, since you couldn’t possibly know the ease or difficulty of such a violent act unless you yourself were either the victim or perpetrator of such a crime. You could have simply not responded to the suggestion, or acknowledged that you don’t know if its plausible, or researched the reality of it being a possibility by finding similar accounts, but you instead decided to make up your own conclusion based on nothing but your own imagination. Of course, the idea that it could not possibly of happened based on the premise that the crowd was so large, would be the height of ignorance, especially for an international reporter.
In the end, your staunch denouncing of Lara Logan’s account is based on nothing but speculation and your own fantasy to fill in the giant gaps in the little first hand information you have come by. You don’t even know if the person that you and your witnesses saw was Lara Logan, nor do you know if she was provided clothes after her rape, etc. I too can fill in whatever gaps I want, but the job of a professional journalist is to report the facts as objectively as possible and nothing more. There is no question in my mind that you believe your assertions, but your writings include so much speculation, I’m not sure how you can call yourself a journalist. It is nothing short of ironic that you cling to the notion that all your criticism towards Lara Logan and CBS is justified based on some lack of their journalistic professionalism.
Finally, I would be remiss if I didn’t point out that your baseless accusations not only re-victimizes Lara Logan, but it re-victimizes every other woman who has been sexually assaulted and not believed due to a general skepticism of its possibility. Even worse, you are fostering the idea that future and past victims should not come forward to accuse such predators for fear that not only will they not be believed, but that the criticism will fall to them instead of the actual perpetrators.
In future, you would be much better served to simply report the facts as presented to you and let the reader reach their own uninformed conclusion, that way the shame will be on them… not you.
Hahaha! This is funny! 🙂
Your mission here is to discredit me. It’s a really, really old rethorical argument called ad hominem: if you can’t destroy the argument, destroy the person. And a nasty task, punching below the belt. Nice.
Is being Israeli a horrible crime? You believed I said that seriously? You mentioned the word “ironic” but you won’t recognise irony here. Because it’s fitting to suggest I’m anti-Semitic. But guess what… From Egypt I went to Lybia, then back to Egypt and then to Tel Aviv… to give a talk to Jewish Israelis who wanted to understand better these revolutions. Got really lovely friends there since years. Been to Israel three times.
Then, from the tons of words I’ve written during this debate, you choose to get me by my dismissal of the fisting hypothesis. Nasty, isn’t it? I’ve seen victims of fisting rapes, have you? I know what it is, don’t take me for a fool. That was Nine’s very gratuitous idea. As it is someone’s line below this post who claims with all certainty that he’s seen penuses in Logan’s vaginas and annus… oh, god, poor woman, really! Are many people like these figuring out in their minds Logan’s rape? Why does she have to go throught this? Who’s doing the real damage to Logan, for Christ’s sake!
We shouldn’t even be mentioning all this nasty fantasies. But you wanted to get me somehow and you thought this would serve.
So now you want to discredit me professionally. “I’m not sure how you can call yourself a journalist.” And then you insist on the argument that I’m victimising the victims. Trent discussed that in a lot more intelligent terms and I’ve answered him already.
Similarly, Nine kindly tried to help me to straight my professional career a few comments above. “Temoris, Did you study Journalism in college or did you just sort of start taking pictures and wander into Journalism with no formal training?” (His use of capital letters is admirable.) He recommended me a book (as if I’d take recommendations from him) and ended graciously reminding me that “There is no substitute for education. Why learn everything the hard and slow way? Eh?”
That’s really fun, too.
Many of the best journalists of today and the past didn’t study journalism. Many didn’t even finish high school. Does that make them less than others?
I wondered, what if I hadn’t studied? Wouldn’t my 21 years of experience reporting from no less than 80 countries and territories make up for something? Should I then bow and say: Sorry Nine, sorry Jeff, whoever you are and whatever experience and education you have… I’ll go back to school now?
I don’t think so. But guess what. I’ll satisfy your shameless arrogance. I never did this before but, once you’ve pushed it, you’ll have it.
I studied a journalism BA in 1990-94 at Mexico City’s Universidad Autónoma Metropolitana, Mexico’s third biggest university and a very prestigious one. Then a diplomma in Political Analysis at Universidad Iberoamericana (Mexico’s most prestigious private university) in 1994-95 and another one in African Studies (2002) at Universidad Complutense de Madrid, Spain’s most important one. And then a PhD in Political Theory (2000-2003) at Universidad Autónoma de Madrid, a little smaller than the Complutense but also a very prestigious Spanish University.
Nine will come up saying that he’ll take nothing but Harvard, where he surely got a graduate degree.
The suggestion that only people with degrees on journalism can practise it is not only ignorance, but an offense to many great journos.
Know thy enemy better. Or you’ll keep aiming too low.
That’s quite impressive, Temoris. I’m sorry for underestimating your skills. You didn’t have to provide this information but I’m glad you did and it does help lend credibility to your insight as a witness. It doesn’t, however, change the fact that you saw very little of the incident yourself.
I am not on any mission, and to the contrary I am not attacking you as a person at all, just the piece you’ve written. No ‘ad hominem’ here, I know nothing about you nor do I care. I am merely commenting on the facts you have presented and the conclusions you have drawn from them.
I don’t think you are an anti-semite, just felt it was poor journalism to not qualify such a statement.
Read what I wrote, I never called into question any of your qualifications whatsoever. I could care less about your education and agree that it would have little bearing on your abilities as a journalist. I was simply commenting on your lack of professional journalism on this particular piece. I think you wished that I was attacking your credentials so that you could list them so as to give yourself some credibility. Not a bad idea, since the piece you wrote has no actual credibility in it.
Perhaps your extensive and impressive credentials and experience are giving you an arrogance that makes you think you have the incite to reach conclusions on less information than the rest of us. Unfortunately, no matter how many other victims of similar crimes you have seen, etc, that is of little consequence since you have never seen or examined or met Lara Logan to compare, nor have you ever met anyone who has met her, or have any information on what medical treatment she required or has received, etc. You know nothing yet feel comfortable hypothesizing anything.
You present yourself well and sound very experienced and knowledgeable so I am sure you have much to back that up. However, I do think that you are missing the point if you can’t see how your conclusions are based on so little information.
I’m glad you find my thoughts funny. Frankly, I find your egregious accusations based on so little evidence sad 😦
Bill Maher: http://youtu.be/NlkNhHlNMPs
Why was lara logan turned over to a doctor at the army base when the men escorted her to their camp? Could the female army doctor be the woman in black who gave logan water?
No doctor in a tent ever saw Lara Logan.
“The soldiers drove Lara and her “60 Minutes” team back to their hotel, where a doctor examined her.”
Guys this whole discussion is an absolute waste of energy on your behalf.
For crying out loud, what sort of research have you done?! The only person speaking any sense here is Nine.
Logan wasn’t raped? WTF?!!!
Where have you been for the past 2 months. There are the cellphone videos. The videos clearly show her with penises in both her vagina and anus. And yes, Nine is right. She wasn’t simply “fingered”, she was fisted. Many men had her. Listen to her interview. She even admits it herself when she talks about how “she surrendered to the sexual attack and that the where inside her, everwhere”.
In one of the clips, there were even a couple of young kids cupping her breasts.
Temoris, how can you possibly claim to be a serious reporter, when you can’t even get the first fact straight? She was raped. Fact. And many times. With hands/fists and penises. Her vagina was torn to shreds. Spend some time on the internet. Get your ass on the private forums and you’ll find the links to the 3gp footage in no time.
I’ve not yet read any serious testimony by anyone who has seen actual footage (only people recounting the fraudulent testimony of the YouTube hoax perpetrated by “FireHallNickVeg” and some testimony by an Italian guy who claims to have spoken to Egyptian immigrants who saw footage). If you know how to find actual footage, you’re the first legitimate source I’ve encountered.
That being said, thanks for saying what you have here. It’s obvious from the interview and CBS footage that this was a serious and brutal attack. Anyone trying to convince us otherwise is completely wrong. This woman was attacked. A crime was committed. There is no conspiracy or controversy.
Temoris either heard testimony about one of the other female journalists attacked that night (dozens were) or he’s been lied to or he’s got an agenda and he’s lying. Those are the only possibilities here.
Then load it UP. Come on! Or point to a link! Until then nobody´s going to believe anything you say.
I agree with Nine and Webster. Logan was without a doubt raped. She didnt openly declare that they penetrated her with penises too as she and CBS are (legitimately) trying to focus people’s attention on the least degrading aspect of the assault. For her to say “One by one, the men were pushing their penises inside my bottom-hole and vagina would have been far too humiliating.”
Later in the interview, she did say: “I surrendered to them and they were INSIDE me, EVERYWHERE”. That to me is a sugar-coated way of letting people know she was practically gang-raped.
Lets face it, they tried to rip her scalp off and tear her limbs off her body. I don’t think they would have had any problems in shoving their forearms up her vagina. These thugs were absolutely incensed, out of their minds. A report from a soldier declared that a lot of drugs had been circulating in the days prior to the 11th, so this could have also been a factor.
With regards the rape, the is also a report from an Italian news correspondent in Cairo who openly decalred on a late night TV show that he caught a glimpse of Lara during all the comotion that evening. He said she was fully stretched out and that many of the men surrounding/holding her, had their pants down by their knees.
I also agree that she was taken towards the tubs of water to be cleaned as she was completely black from dust apparently (she admits it herself in the interview). With all the hands gripping her there was no way she simply.. fell. So why would she be covered head to toe in dust? Most likely because she had spent a lot of
time on the ground. And why would they have placed her on the ground, if not to penetrate her vaginally with their penises?
There is no shadow of doubt in my mind that this woman was brutally violated, non stop, in at least 2 (possibly 3) orifices by hands/penises by a mob of men who had absolutely no mercy.
The person who wrote this comment has pretended to be an Egyptian among other fake personalities. His e mail address is Lambretti79@live.co.uk and has commented under the following names:
Ideodaniach (the “Egyptian”)
There is NO actual FOOTAGE yet. The 3gp Footage is a myth. Nobody ever downloaded anything. Until now NO Footage exists. Cut Temoris some slack, man. Beeing a troll is o.k. but everything has its limits.
I agree that no footage has surfaced but nobody is here to “troll” Temoris (not me, anyway). We’re simply trying to defend the validity of this woman’s claim and show how ludicrous it sounds for someone to deny the rape happened that night. I mean, come on, you guys might as well be denying the holocaust or claiming the government was behind 9/11. You’ve got to expect some opposition when you flat out accuse a woman of pretending to be gang raped for television ratings. I mean, holy shit, people. Seriously.
Look at what Temoris is claiming here. He’s saying:
“Oh, yea, listen everyone, this woman who was already at the absolute top of her field in journalism, an 18 year veteran war correspondent who was on the scene to lend support to the protestors and denounce the rule of Mubarek suddenly decided to transform herself from a Liberal to a Conservative and further a secret racist agenda she’d kept hidden her whole life and pretend to be gang raped so she could boost the ratings of the television network already paying her well and for whom she had already won numerous awards. She’s totally faking it, out of the blue, so she can profit from it, only she’s refusing to do more than one interview (one she won’t profit from since it’s the network for whom she already works). Totally. She just got her butt pinched and made up the rest. She’s that devious and evil because, I heard, a long time ago her husband wrote her a Dear John letter when she was serving in Iraq (divorced her) a year before she met a contractor who’d been separated from his wife for over a year (her leaving him while he was serving in Iraq) and got pregnant, married him, had another kid with him and lived happily ever after. Wow, what a slut. Eh? How wicked must this woman be not to spend the remainder of her life alone after her first husband left because he couldn’t handle her job? She probably deserved to get raped but she totally didn’t and I know this for a fact because I saw a woman rushed by me for 10 seconds in the dark and I heard a few dudes say they escorted a woman to a tent later that night. I’m a journalist! I’m a professional! Look how awesome I am for being brave and taking pictures of people! I mean, I did nothing to help her even though I knew she was in deep trouble but I’m brave! Look how great I am! I am Temoris! Everyone listen to me!”
Man, that’s bullshit. This guy is full of shit.
I really like you Nine. There is nothing I can do to show what you are really here for better than your own writing.
You just said you are no troll. And immediately after you give us a good example of troll practise. You’re great 🙂
I’m ignoring your comments from now on. I’ll talk to serious people with serious concerns and a serious attitude.
Bravery is fighting a violent rapist to the ground and restraining him while he’s trying to beat up a woman right in front of you (something I’ve done), not taking pictures of victims after the fact (something you’ve done). Quit trying to act like you’re the big shot we should all listen to and you’ve got all the facts. It’s obvious that I’m right and you’re wrong based on the testimony of the victim, her producer, her bodyguard and others at the scene. These people were cared for by physicians in America. Marines from the US Embassy who saw her after the rape say she had the shit beat out of her (see link above).
Here is a picture of Lara Logan speaking one month after the attack. Do you see that red mark on her chest? It’s a woud from being whipped with sticks. Did she fabricate this wound for your benefit?
You are not right, Temoris. What you’re doing here is foolish.
Sorry, Temoris. I may have gotten out of hand and criticized you a little too much here. You are a brave person and your work is very important. I’m sure your intentions are good (from your perspective) and you bear malice toward no one. But, everyone makes mistakes. I believe you’ve made a mistake here: I think you either saw a different incident or got unreliable information from your friends.
It’s time I let this go. Nothing short of video/pictures or new testimony by verifiable witnesses involved in the actual incident could lend more clarity than Ms. Logan has herself. She’s back. She’s in control. She can stick up for herself just fine.
My interest in this has been for three reasons: 1.) She’s someone worth defending; 2.) The truth is always worth defending; 3.) A large portion of my life has been devoted to the understanding of combat and personal protection while another large portion of my life has been devoted to research and analysis. Also, of course, it’s an interesting story for a number of reasons: civil rights, equal rights, religion, politics, history, journalism, sex and violence, bravado, etc.
I’d quit my current job, get back into training, and work as her family’s personal bodyguard and self-defense coordinator if I had any connection with them at all, if it would make her and her loved ones feel safe again, and I don’t think my loyalty would be misplaced. People with ideals should be appreciated and encouraged. This woman has done great work over the years. I’ll ask you one last time to try and give her the benefit of the doubt.
I don’t think arguing further with you would be productive. Good luck in your adventures, Temoris. Do what you can to bring progress to the world.
No one is going to upload any links on an open forum. C’mon guys get a grip. Think of the legal implications. And just because someone is aware of something you’re not doesn’t make that person a troll. The videos DO exist. But they’re not being posted everywhere on google and they’re not being labelled ‘Lara Logan’.
This woman was amdist the crowd for 45 minutes. Every third person in the square that night had a cellphone camera recording. She herself has officially declared that they were filming her and you guys still consider the cellphone footage to be an urban myth.
The videos DO exist. Lara was gangraped by many men. And she knows the cameras recorded her. That is why she has not categorically stated “they didn’t uses their penises”. She will not speak to external news organizations because she knows that the question regarding her being penetrated by penises might pop up. At that point she would have to admit it. Otherwise she would be considered a liar. If she said “no” and then the footage proved otherwise her image of an honest and reliable news corrspondent would be tarnished. She doesnt want to face that question. That is why she only gave an interview (once and not again) in front of the cameras to an inside colleague where the questions could be handpicked and the final cut could be edited if necessary.
I repeat the videos DO exist and Lara was literally gangraped.
I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m only saying that I have seen no comments on any forum by anyone with a credible description of any video. I’ve seen those “Full Report” videos with supposed interviews of three witnesses. I’ve spoken to some of the people quoted on those videos. I’ve spoken to several people who claimed to have seen the incident with their own eyes. None of it has proven to be valid, very little of it anyway.
I won’t believe the video has been posted until I see it for myself.
If you’ve seen it then you’ve downloaded it. I would not blame anyone for not posting it. You’d get in serious trouble. But, I don’t think anyone could get in trouble for sending it (or a link to it) via email to an individual (though I’m not positive). If you wouldn’t mind setting up an independent email account on hotmail or gmail, I could do the same and you could send me the video.
I will not distribute it or send it to anyone else or discuss details as I do not wish to further humiliate Ms. Logan (she’s certainly gained my admiration). I’ve been following this incident for months and I’ve researched it as much as possible from the perspective of someone not working on the case and located in the US. Seeing the video would end all debate for me and bring closure.
Can you provide me with it?
Do you know someone who can provide me with it?
Mm. No. You don’t, do you? I thought not.
Temoris, The trolls have invaded your blog. I recommend erasing the troll posts if possible? If you don’t, they will just have their own endless meaningless conversations and dissuade real people from talking here. That is their intent and purpose – to stop people from discussing this story. It is always the same charade – endless pointless arguing, conspiracy theory or porn. If the post is in no relation to your discussion or pornographic, it would be greatly appreciated if it was erased. And this ‘nine’ person was on your other Logan blog and he did the exact same thing there. And you can erase this post also since it adds nothing to the discussion.
Temoris allowing discussion here has been his only saving grace. It’s not as though blogs and articles all over the Internet aren’t linking to his articles on Logan and tearing apart each of his false claims. At least, here, he has the ability to answer questions and defend his position. I mean, until he realizes he can’t defend such a poor position, feigns exasperation, and starts ignoring people (me).
I’ve already finished talking. I made my point. Others are free to rinse and repeat. Temoris is wrong and it’s obvious. He saw a woman rushed by for ten seconds and heard rumors about a woman he didn’t see getting escorted to a tent somewhere at some point later in the evening. That’s all he has to offer and it’s almost nothing. End of story.
I have something to add to your conversation, though it’s something very slight. Some people are wondering how Lara still had possession of her pants after the incident, them being torn to shreds during the incident. I think that parts of her pants remained tucked into the thigh-high leather boots she is seen wearing. Another part could have remained around her waist.
This doesn’t account for what Temoris claims his friends claim they saw, a woman with pants on, still fully dressed, being delivered to safety. She does say her shirt was around her neck but her pants would have been beyond repair.
I think you meant knee-high or calf length boots. Nobody wears thigh-high boots anymore. This isn’t the ’80s.
I guess the only thing I can add is that I believe Lara’s account. I was not present in the Square, and I am basing this on Lara’s actions following the assault, and her body language during the interview. In addition, embellishing her account would be uncharacteristic of Lara and would make no sense from a professional perspective – especially since she has not capitalized on her experience.
However, I was not at the Square, and I did not witness anything directly. Temoris, I certainly appreciate your perspective and your contributions, but in this case, I think you have the story wrong. I can agree that the night must have been absolute bedlam and chaos, combined with lack of lighting, crowds, and noise – I am not surprised to hear a divergent account. But….when all is said and done, the only perspective that I am concerned with is Lara’s, as hers is the one that she lives with. If she says this happened to her, then for me, it happened.
Nine, I do not need to see any footage or photos to find “closure.” In fact, I hope to God that no such footage ever sees the light of day. Yes, it will probably at some point make it out into the ‘Net, as nothing is ever truly kept private nowadays. And if and when it does, that might cause a few mea culpas in the blogosphere, but quite frankly I would not care one iota about any mea culpas.
The level of devastation for Lara such footage would bring….THAT would revictimize her and even worse, would elevate the event from an incident in the Square to international exposure – forever. I would never, ever, wish that on any individual, let alone a person of Lara’s status and celebrity. I hope whomever is working with Lara is addressing that point – how to cope when that footage is leaked.
And one last comment, Temoris, I think that we can both agree that SOMETHIG happened to Lara that night…we might disagree on the level and intensity, but she experienced something that was extremely distressing to her. The fact she is willing to step forward at all is a testament to her courage, and I think it will be empowering. I have already experienced it first-hand with a few of my newer clients – they believe that if someone of lara’s status is able to step forward, even though her story has now become international fodder, that maybe, just maybe, they can step forward as well.
At any rate, I will not jump on your abilities as a journalist. I think given the fact you have been reporting in the field for as long as you have is testament enough about your abilities. As i said earlier, please keep up the work and stay safe.
I was just trying to persuade Mr. Brown to tell me what he knew. I don’t think the world (or any individual) needs “closure” on this case; Lara provided “closure” with her interview.
She’s taken control of the narrative, told her side of the story and shown that she isn’t going to let this incident destroy her, her family, her career or her passion for journalism. The interview was a bold move, the best move she could make, and it’s helped her put all this behind her. Seeing her report the news again, resuming her life after all this trauma, has been an inspiration. I’ll always admire her moxie and courage. Her entire career has been marked by integrity. She deserves our respect.
I’m confident she’d find a way handle it if some video or pictures came out but I’m sure it would break her heart and break the hearts of her husband, her family and the entire nation. A video doesn’t have to come out to convince anyone sane/intelligent that the attack was horrible. It’s obvious to the public she’s telling the truth. It’s also obvious that CBS has more footage than they released, doctors who treated her could testify, her bodyguard and producer can corroborate her account, etc. There is no doubt her testimony is accurate or, at the very least, that she’s risking her personal credibility on it being accurate. There is no conspiracy or controversy in any way. She’s telling the truth.
Temoris has to know he’s wrong by now, he’s just trying to salvage his own sense of credibility after posting such a flimsy report for the world to see.
I appreciated talking to you, Trent. Who knows, perhaps we’ll meet up in another conversation where we agree on the basic facts and produce a positive understanding.
I wish you all the best and hope you can keep providing help and support to people who need it.
Forgive me if I was rude or disrespectful at any point. And thanks for sharing with us here in my blog.
Salaam shalom, paz para ti amigo.
I think that is probable, as I think there are many issues in which you and I could agree – especially in terms of issues involving social justice and the common struggle of people to exert their desire for self-determination. In many ways, I am envious of the work that you and other foreign correspondents do to bring us the story. I can only imagine the electric feel of being in a situation where one is directly observing social change and being a first-hand witness to that change…over reading about it from the comfort of a living room.
At any rate, I will look forward to keeping abreast of your work and I see I will have to brush up on my spanish….
And the trolling continues. Nine continues to troll the page. Never ending string of posts adding nothing to the conversation. Just like the other blog.
I started deleting comments. Nine has been insulting me but I can take that. A different thing is that he’s insulting others and actually using offensive words. AS I can’t spend the day taking care of his insults, please just ignore him.
I see that my two comments to Julia were deleted. That’s totally fair. I regret reacting to her harshly. I’ll refrain from participating in this discussion further unless new evidence surfaces. Good luck and safe travels, Temoris.
I think like most people who saw the interview, I fully accept that what Ms Logan said was entirely truthful. That does not mean, however, that I accept that she was telling the entire truth. It is simply that she has chosen not to comment on certain aspects of the attack and has neither confirmed nor denied that she was raped in ways other than hand rape, or that she was abused in other ways such as being masturbated or urinated on as has been claimed by some. This is perfectly understandable and acceptable and may be compared to the evidence provided by Elizabeth Smart recently where she gave only such testimony as was necessary to ensure the conviction of her abductor, leaving many of the horrors she suffered unspoken.
Regarding the legality or otherwise of posting images of the attack, I don’t recall this being an issue when pictures of Iraqui prisoners being tortured and sexually abused by American troops were posted all over the internet. Is it only considered unacceptable when the victim is a famous Westerner?
So Temoris, what is the solution to this situation? There are two very different stories. The people who claim to have rescued her are not only omitted from the accepted story, but this story is being used against their protest movement.
I think it’s time to drop the issue. I hoped for an honest account from Logan and/or the CBS. This will never come. Damage is done beyond repair. That interview only made it worse.
There are too many more important things to do in this world that are more relevant than whatever the can say now. Let’s move on. I’m too busy here in Colombia, my own country is a mess, the Middle East is on fire…
The solution would be that he goes to Egypt and tries to find out the truth. End of solution.
What part of this story is not clear to you? He has provided a statement from one of the men who helped rescue her and was witness to her attack in the crush of the mob. The mob was still at a manageable size and she was still in one piece with un-ripped clothing when Temoris saw her. The attack happened down the road like his friend describes.
She was accused of being an Israeli in the same way Temoris describes in his other blog. It played out like his friend states. They were stuck and couldn’t move because the mob quickly grew so big that it crushed them. Because they could not move, there was a scuffle where the mob was trying to grab her, like Temoris’s friend describes. A man intervened with a taser and talked the mob into letting them take her to the soldiers to be arrested.
From the beginning she had two men with her and they were protecting her in the mob along with several Egyptians like Temoris describes. If she was groped or hit in the beginning of the attack, no one has gone into detail about it. The highlight of everyone’s story has been the mob crush part.
Hello, I’m Christian from Egypt.
Very interesting reading this comments. But I just want you all to know what it is that really happened to Miss lara Logan that night. This is what we know here. The men who did this to her had planned to take her clothes off about ten-fifteen minutes before she was attacked. They had been watching her beofre when she was filming and were getting closer and closer to her. then they were all around her and the crew, in cricles. Maybe 200 men, could be more. They were all whispering to each other about what they wanted to do. I dont know if you understand this word, but look up in internet: “tournante”. This happens very frequently in Egypt, especially outside cinemas when films finish. Women here knwo what time not to pass in front of cinemas because there is risk of many men leaving at once and in this situation their is risk of being victim of sexual assault.
Anyway, with Logan she was getting lot of attention that night by many men, especially big gangs of men, and they were all agreeing what they were going to do to her. They wanting to have her clothes off and have sex with her and were talking about how they will surround her so she can no leave. it was not accident what happened to her. When they were all in position to attack they were just waiting for the right moment.
I see the video of Miss Logan interview and they show the moment before the crowd attacked. The egyptian man with blue sweater and glasses who was assistant to Miss Logan actually heard the men talking about they want to do the “tournante” on her and this is when he looked very worried and said to her that they must leave. It is in this moment the battery ended and the light stopped. When it went dark this is when it was considered the right moment and when they starting the grabbing of her breasts and it was the start of the whole attack. The men pushed in from every direction and she was taken away and stripped of all clothes. From what I know, she spent long time on ground and lots and lots of different men releif themself with her. It is said that at leadt 10-12 men penetrated her with penis, maybe more and . I read the media say it was 25 minutes, but from what i told, it could be an hour. the fact she was a foreign and not wearing any veil made her easy target and no body else wanted to intervene to help or were too scared as this was very uneducated people who do this to her. Egypt is very sorry for what happened to Miss Lara, and you should know that no all Egytpain men are like this. We have most respect for women and we invite Lara to return and we will take care and say sorry to her and hope this men are catched and they go to prison. Just wanted to say what i know. thankyou.
Any evidence you can provide?
Hey Temoris, what’s up man! Long time no post, see you’re back in the thick of it with the whole Lara Logan thing again. Nice that you’re in Colombia too, BTW. Libya must’ve been quite an adventure.
Also, I wouldn’t take anything in the above account at face value. There are lots of voyeurs who are attracted to this story like moths to a light, and enjoy projecting their own…perversions – I don’t know how else to put it – onto the event and then passing it off as ‘real.’ The post you’re answering there I can virtually guarantee is not by a ‘Christian in Egypt’ but just another obsessive weirdo.
If Lara Logan has to worry about anybody I think, its people like that who are little too obsessed with either her, or her in the context of what happened in Egypt.
The person who wrote this comment has pretended to be an Egyptian among other fake personalities. His e mail address is Lambretti79@live.co.uk and has commented under the following names:
Ideodaniach (the “Egyptian”)
I mean, “Ideodaniach’s” cooment, not Paul’s.
I do not know enough about the facts to comment. However:
1) The judgments and expectations that you place on Logan in regard to how long she took to speak about what occurred are offensive. As a human being, how can you possibly judge how much time a stranger might require, to sufficently recover, to be able to discuss something like this, publically? As a reporter, how can you think that you can compare the experience of one woman and her response, (Addario), to that of another, (Logan), in regard to something as personal as sexual assault?
2) Your assumption that female journalists would share with you the same confidences that they share with each other in regard to “part of the job” sexual assaults is nonsensical. I have never read your work before, but, from this example I can only conclude that you are not much of a reporter.
3) What is behind “Western” views of Muslims? Read the joyous accounts of the Logan assult in the online report: “Egypt: Momin Muslims Pleased Allah by Raping Captured Woman Lara Logan” for an example. Extremists exist in all religions. However, I have never read about religious Christian or Jewish groups reveling in the rape of a perceived enemy. (Yes, both have reveled in the assassination of “enemies”, e.g. evangelicals & abortion doctors; Jews & Arab militants. However, I would submit that rape is different. And yes, I am aware that they are quite mistaken in what they assert happened to Logan.)
So you think that any isolated statement you want us to believe you found on the internet proves anything?
If you have never read about that you need to read more. Take extremist Jewish settlers in the West Bank, for instance.
Regarding your dismissal of my work, forgive me if I consider your opinion completely irrelevant.
All I suggest here is that the “isolated statement” to which you refer is still a statement by Muslims about the attack. Do I think it represents all Muslim thought on this event? Of course not. However, it was a Muslim group, expressing their joy, approval, and attempts to compare it to actions approved of by their prophet Mohammad, seemed rather uniquely vile to me. As to Jewish extremists, (and Christian extremists), again, both do horrible things. However, if you know of a time when either has publicly exulted in the gang rape of a woman, as this group has done, show me where it is. Otherwise, accept that I have a point, (one that you may not like, but is still valid), and move on…
By the bye…I greatly appreciate the fact that you clearly read the comments people send to you and take the time to respond. Regardless of whether we agree, your willingness to this is adrimable. Dialogue is where all of this begins to end. Thanks, Alan
Problem is, Alan, that you are making a very general assesment basing yourself in little, if at all, evidence.
What you are saying is that it is only –though not all– who can celebrate an enemy’s gang rape. That’s quite strong, isn’t it? And some would say racist. In order for me to give you that point, or to prove anything at all, you should:
1- Provide us with the statement you mention. You want evidence from me but it is you who brought the argument up and then you have to prove what you say before. I’m not saying no one did celebrate –I’ve travelled enough following extremist Islamic groups to be unaware of what they can do or say– but still you haven’t shown us anything.
2- This is a lot harder to do: you should demonstrate such attitudes do not exist among Christians and Jews. You are saying they don’t, that’s your whole point, so how are you going to prove it? Believe me I have no time to surf the internet looking for this –even less with this horrible 3G connection I’m using, which is really bad here and works from time to time. But the load of proving this relies on you for the same reason. I’ve also read and heard awful things from fanatics, no matter what religion. Not specifically gang rape –first we should find a case– but they’ve celebrated all kinds of violence as fair and desirable.
Good bye Alan, thanks for dropping by, you’re welcome anytime.
Below is the statement to which I referred.
Egypt: Momin Muslims Pleased Allah by Raping Captured Woman Lara Logan
Saturday, 26 February 2011 06:56 Ali Khalaf Bearded Momin Muslims, in their joyous celebration of deposing Hosni Mubarak in Tahrir Square, added further spice to their joy by capturing the kafir woman reporter Lara Logan of CBS and gang-raping her one after another as others, watching the show and masturbating shouted: “Jew! Jew!! Allahu Akbar”.
Politically correct mainstream news-media did not give details of the rape and just called it simple ‘sexual assault ‘for the fear that details may offend Muslims (see the video). The fools do not know that the Egyptian Muslims were doing what our prophet did after every jihadi raid and reading the details is like reading sahih Bukhari hadiths. Here are the actual details of the incident as reported by Muslim media based on videos taken on cell phones.
A bearded Muslim was the first one who got the ball rolling. He ripped the top off the (well endowed) reporter to expose her breasts and began clawing them with both his hands. He then pinned her to the ground, removed her pants pulled out his (circumcised) penis and raped her vaginally (what Allah allowed Muslims in ayas 4.3, 4.24, 23.6, 33.50 and 70.30 and what our Prophet did to Safia, Juavaria, Rehana and hundreds of other kafirs after capturing them)
After he was done, at least six more Muslims followed him and raped her vaginally while a number of other men raped her anally (anal sex is allowed in Islam; Quran says Muslim men an approach their women in any way they desired).
Some men fondled her breasts while other were raping her (to gain Allah’s blessings).
Many men watching the action masturbated on her. (we pray that Allah give them partial credits)
Some men urinated on her.
The men were shouting “Jew! Jew!” and “Allah u Akbar”…
The onlookers included women and policemen.
Reporter’s breasts were bitten and one of the nipples was bitten off (left)
One report claims that up to 50 men were involved in the rape/fondling…
COMPARING LARA LOGAN WITH VICTIMS OF OUR PROPHET
Although momins of Egypt tried to do to a reporter what our prophet did to his captured women, their actions fell way short of the standards our Prophet set for all Muslim (33.21: prophet is your role model).
– Momins raped Lara for an hour and then let her be freed while Prophet claimed the owner ship of all his captured women.
– Momins did not kill any relative of Lara. Prophet Mohammad often killed all male relatives of his victims.
– Lara is 39 years old. In his heydays, the Prophet would not touch a 39 year old captured woman with a ten foot pole, let alone with his six-incher. Prophet was very selective in his choice of captured women. He liked very young meat. Judging from his fondness of sexual activities with 6 year old Aisha, one can safely say that he always chose very young girls as part of his booty.
This is blatantly fake. It’s another version of the Fatboy video. A projection of the creator’s fantasies on poor Lara Logan. I wish you could be more careful in what you bring to a rational debate. I wonder why you put the text but not a link to the original source.
Please, notice this: no religious Muslim would be so graphic about sexual intercourse. Never. Never. If some of them had perpetrated a sexual abuse, they wouldn’t acknowledge it as such. It is absolutely forbidden, out of the way, it won’t happen, ever. I thought you meant they’d celebrated her rape using euphemisms –that means, that Logan somehow got what she deserved and such, not actually mentioning gang rape and providing details. Those who fabricated this are as dumb as the fake Egyptian that showed up here, they don’t know anything about Arabic culture, Islam or anything.
Besides, now it was bearded men who raped her… where are they in Logan’s story? where are they in the videos?
Please, be serious.
Ha ha ha! Just look at this:
“COMPARING LARA LOGAN WITH VICTIMS OF OUR PROPHET”
So, they’d say “the victims of our prophet”, instead of calling them “those who got what they deserved”
And then: “(33.21: prophet is your role model).”
Hahahahahahaha! That’s really funny! “role model” would be a concept widely used in the dunes of the 7th century Arabian peninsula!!!
You do not seem to be terrific at reading and retaining what you’ve read. From my first entry to your blog, (the last line): “Yes, I am aware that they are quite mistaken in what they assert happened to Logan”.
This statement appears only to be their joy at what the think happened to Logan. I have no reason to share your assumption that this is a hoax and not a statement of opinion by one Muslim organization, probably a small one, but their opinion nonetheless. However, I do not judge Jews on the actions of West Bank extremists, I do not judge Christions on the basis of Christian extremists, and I do not judge Muslims on the actions of Muslim extremists…but, it seems to me that, rather than acknowledging that these voices exist, you’d prefer to assume they couldn’t possibly be real…That, to me, is ridiculously naive.
I just wanted to answer to Mr Alan Abrahamson.
This is not an attack done by Christian Egytptians. We are only 10-15% of the population here. The men were calling her “Jew” during the rapes. The “tournantes” are not happy celebrations of a woman body, they are very very violent attacks, where the women is used like a doll and treated any way the men want to treat her. with this regards, I am sure it is not the men at the front of video who were smiling and cheering in camera who were responsible, but the gangs of men behind them. Waiting in the dark.
I hear comment above about Miss Logan been “fisted”. Sorry if crude word to use, but you have to know that in Arab countries when men have sex with woman for religious reasons they like put the penis it the woman anus. And usually they first put the hand inside the hole to stretch for penis. so it is very common thing to do when having the sex. When i read that Miss Logan have damage/tearing off internal vagina, I know staright away that this men have put their fists all the way up her vagina and bottom.
They try to pull out hair because they want to teach lesson and also the reason they stretch the legs so wide is because they want to really humiliate the lady and expose her (all her holes). I know for fact that they have pushed the penis in the anus as well as vagina and, sorry if this is vulgar, but the reason they want to wash the body is because many of the men who were surrounding her when she was been raped were using masturbation on her and also urinate. The fact she was rape “everywhere” as she confirmed (in bottom as well as vagina) indicate that she was turned over on the floor and so because been wet and full of dust, she became very dirty. So this men want to wash her body so they can start again raping her.
Sorry if this is all very vulgar but I think is important to explain what happen here as I think to many people are laughing at this attack as if it never happened or was not very seriuous. With regard the time it took for Miss Logan to speak to press, I am sure she was very traumatised after whta hbappen and I maybe she is still suffering. I know that many videos were taken and I know that there is no way they will not finish on the internet. I think there is an investigation ging on now and some men have actuyally been arrested, but until this whole thing dies down, I don’t think people will be putting their videos all over the internet for afraid of being arrested. It is only a matter of time. But when the investigation is finished then the videos will be shown and will show what I’m talking about here, and I jut hope that Miss Logan will be strong to cope with this when it happens as it will be of course very ashaming for her.
I am not familiar with Egyptian culture, but I am familiar with mob behavior. Within the United States, there have been several instances when “mob rule” held sway and women were sexually attacked. In each and every example, the hooligans had their way for about 30-40 minutes before others in the crowd became aware of what was happening and they intervened. In some cases, the interval was much shorter, but invariably, calmer heads will not stand by while another person is being brutalized.
I find it hard, if not impossible, to believe that Egyptians would stand by and let Lara’s attack continue in the manner you describe. Such a culture would see attacks on the level of Lara’s happening on a much, much greater frequency., and quite frankly, one does not see that. Does Egypt have an issue with women’s rights? Sure – but it is not the free-for-all that the culture would have to be in order for your story to be accurate.
Was she attacked? Yes – but I think her version is much more accurate. An attack that you described occurring for close to an hour would result in Lara being unable to move, and they certainly would not have transported her to Washington DC for treatment. I can understand why they did not wish to use Egyptian facilities, given her mental state. But Italy, Germany, France, Spain, and the UK all have first-class trauma facilities, and they would have had no choice but to use one of them, as the level of injury to Lara would have been grievous.
Trent, he’s a troll. Egyptians would never talk like this. NEVER. This should give you some indication that maybe you should learn more about Egyptian culture.
Temoris should give more background on Egypt since this story is completely dependent on people’s ignorance of Egyptian culture.
I agree that talking like this would be simply unacceptable for an Egyptian person. I wonder what fascination and pleasure these people find in imagining and describing the dirty violence they apply in their minds to Lara Logan. It’s like that poor fat kid’s video someone posted in my previous article’s discussion. They need help.
I looked up “tournante” and it seems to be a French word. Your broken English seems overly intentional and out of place i.e. if you could read English well enough to study this blog post (and the comments to it) then why can’t you write English well enough to respond with proper spelling and grammar? I’m not calling you a liar or a fake but every single person I’ve corresponded with who has claimed to be Egyptian and spoken in such typical broken English has turned out to be a complete fraud. Meanwhile, nearly every Egyptian posting on the many blogs featuring apologies “from Egypt” to Ms. Logan seems fully able to write in proper English. I’m not going to argue about it. I’m just throwing this statement out here as a warning to those corresponding with you. For the record, though you seem to support one or two of my arguments, personally, I don’t believe you are Egyptian. Others can believe what they want.
is okay if you not believe me. I respect everyone opinion. You sound like a man who is clever to reason. But you need understand that when this happen it was very late. It is true there were many women and children in the square that night. Buth these were go after mid-night becasue other men, more violent, have started to join. Most husband and father have gone home with family. What is left is only young men who are been very unruly. And also the crowd was very very big. Unless you have big anti-hooligan police squad to penetrate this crowd, no single man could have gotten through to help. I hear that the security man of Miss Logan was British ex-special force/marine but he all alone could no do anything. Any man alone trying to help would have easily been damaged by this 200 men. This was very serious situation.
You say you dont believe. How do I knwo this things? Do you think all this men have opportunity of a life to to have sexual rapport with blonde/blue eye woman from West (very rare) and after they no want to be proud and tell the friend hiw lucky they were. Even to just see the lady with no clothes on and to her having sex with other men was thing of big pride to them. I admit I was no there there when it happened, but i assure you that the story is been told here, especially among the young egyptian men, and ever one knows the details of what happened. Of course I do not must convince you. You are always free to decide for yourself. This is always how it should be. But this thing did happen.
The person who wrote this comment has pretended to be an Egyptian among other fake personalities. His e mail address is Lambretti79@live.co.uk and has commented under the following names:
Ideodaniach (the “Egyptian”.)
Too bad no one on this blog is a reporter who could investigate claims like Ideodaniach’s further. While Ideodaniach’s actual evidence is very thin, ie. based on general cultural observations and hearsay from members of the crowd, they are tantamount to the evidence presented by Temoris.
Of course given the testimony of Lara Logan and her crew, and given an absolute lack of a motive for making up this story and tremendous reasons not to, and given a lack of evidence to the contrary. I think its clear what happened.
Good people, which includes everyone participating in this discussion, will always have a difficult time believing bad people’s capacity to do such evil, no matter how many times it has been presented and proven to us. Our ability to deny it is often greater than our ability to accept it. In the end, that is why I myself wanted to believe Temoris’s account, and its probably what lead me here. I would rather believe this woman was lying than believe that humanity is capable of such a horror, especially during a celebration in a crowded public area to a totally innocent stranger. Unfortunately, I have not been persuaded and must face the truth.
Believe what you must, but try to base it on evidence and logic and reason.
I’ve seen things a lot more worse than that Jeff. I still have that instinct you mention, though, finding it really hard to believe people can do certain things. But that’s at an emotional level. Intellectually, I know they can and they do.
Just wanted to say sorry if my english is no perfect. I did no have the chance to go to oxford university. I try to watch many american movies in and read lots of books in english. You have said many times that egyptian men are bad, well in this case you are been very bad and not giving welcome to someone who is no perfect when speaking in your language. I am trying to explain things as best as i can. There is a big difference betwen understanding what you can read and then writing the same way. I can understand lot of Spanish when i hear also but this does no mean that i can write with 100% perfection. Sorry, but you are not been very welcome with me.
I know that “tournante” is french word, but i do no know any english word that can describe this thing to you. It is a something that happen in muslim community in Europe and it comes from the arab countries where it started. Here it happen very much. So i say once again that what is happened to miss Logan is she was victim of a very big and violent tournante. Is ok if you do no believe me, what can I do?
The person who wrote this comment has pretended to be an Egyptian among other fake personalities. His e mail address is Lambretti79@live.co.uk and has commented under the following names:
Ideodaniach (-the “Egyptian”)
In all sincerity, of all the accounts that I have heard so far on this case, the one by Ideodaniach is certainly the most plausible and likely. I believe him. His version makes perfect sense to me. The problem with most Westereners is that they live in a world where censorship has dulled their senses. Every time we hear something on the news about an accident, killing, assault etc. the MSM always spare us the gory details so as to not disturb our sensibilities. We are just not used to hear about graphic violence. And yet the world is an ugly place and this sort of thing can and does happen. I remember a few years ago a friend of mine, in his mid-twenties, had to have councilling with a shrink due his unpreparedness for such graphic violence. A friend sent him a link to a video about a kid skateboarding who fell and broke his arm. The link led him to one of those graphic videotube website where there is no censorship and anything goes. Anyway, he started clicking on all these videos and ended up watching killings, beheadings, people’s limbs being blown off in explosions, victims of car crashes, homicides etc. He stayed on the site for a couple of hours and initially the images didn’t have any effect on him. That night however he woke up in a bed of sweat as the material had finally sunk into his brain. He was in a state of shock. He just wasn’t used to that kind of graphic violence. In his own little world (like most of us) he believed that such things never happened.
And so in this case we are told that something really bad happened to a blonde, Western lady in the midst of a mob of 200-300 merciless men (as she described them) for 45 mins-1 hour, after 1 am in the morning, in a place where there was no police, no government and where sexual frustration and harassment have no equals in any other country on this planet. It’s not that we don’t want to believe, it’s that we CHOOSE not to believe. We want to think that the world is all fairytales, sunshine and rainbows (as Rocky would say..) but it’s not.
I am convinced that what Ideodaniach affirms is the true version. I am also convinced that the men in the crowd had planned to rape Logan the moment they set eyes on her. They knew too well she was with an American news organization and yet they needed a pretest to be able to unleash their sexual energy, disguised in the form of rage. And so someone shouted “She’s an Israeli!” which immediately gave them an opening, a reason to drag her away and start tearing her clothes off. It also granted them “permission” to teach her a lesson, thus do “whatever” they wanted to do with her, first and foremost sexually assault her (which was their only true intent from the beginning).
In the interview, she said that the nurse back in the US could barely handle the shreds of Logan’s pants that she had retained. She said that by looking at the shreds you could see just how bad the sexual assault actually was. She said this whilst looking down, sheepishly, ashamed to make eye contact with the interviewer. Why? This was obviously a reference to the prolonged penile raping she had suffered. The pants were obviously full of semen and possibly urine, blood.. who knows.
I really think you guys need to wake up and join us in the real world. The woman was traumatized. In tears. She feared for her life. She said she had just one thing in mind when she lost her bodyguard and that was to stay alive. So she “surrendered” to the sexual assault. “They were inside me, everywhere” she stated.
This woman was savagely raped. I know it hurts to read these words, but if we are going to analise this case then we need to be realistic and objective. She wasnt the only woman to be molested that night. Even an Egyptian wife (with her husband) was almost raped by another smaller mob of 50 men. Simply do your research.
I just want to say to Ideodaniach that you shouldnt be upset if the others are not impressed by your level of English grammar. You are trying to communicate your points to us and they are making perfect sense to me. I fully believe you, so please do not refrain from posting the details of what you know just because others don’t like the contents of your comments. Please don’t let them bully you.
In certain circumstances, yes, ideo’s scenario would be plausible. If Lara was alone in an isolated area, for example, or taken to a remote area. But this did not happen in a vacuum. This event happened with hundreds of thousands of people, and within that group, the overwhelming majority would not stand by and watch the brutalization that is being described.
Again, if one uses similar scenes that have played out in other parts of the world, attacks like Lara’s can happen in similar circumstances….but in each case the event happens because others are not initially aware of what is happening until a period of time later. Once awareness is achieved, the crowd will react. For those who wonder why water was thrown, I will refer you to the Puerto Rican Pride Parade in New York City. Bands of youth brutalized women, and in the footage that was shown, the attackers were dispersed by other members of the crowd throwing water on the scene.
Lara was pulled and dragged along the Square….she was not isolated. In fact, I suppose one reason why the attack lasted as long as it did was because she was moved. If the attackers held their ground and raped her, as is being suggested, the mob would have been stationary – and I can practically guarantee that a scene of a gang-rape like the one being described would have drawn inordinate amount of negative interest to the attackers.
And no, the mob of 200 would have been no match against the fight that would have built-up. At first it would have been a few dozen, which would draw attention, bringing more people to the scene, which would attract even more attention, and the situation would have continued to escalate into one hell of a street brawl as more people became aware of what was unfolding. THAT would certainly attract the attention of news agencies and soldiers, and a brawl of this magnitude would have made the headlines.
i’m not sure which country you’re from but i suspect you haven’t been in a real riot or gathering like the one that’s been explained. yes it is possible for that scenario to happen, it is possible for a woman to be taken in such situation and raped, and people 30 feet away would not know. i’m in Nigeria and yes it has happen before. crowd dynamics and mentality do not follow the pattern you assume.
secondly there is a saying in yoruba language “I do not need to see an elephant before i believe it has passed through a village.”
what that means is even if people claim that an elephant passed through their village, the signs and damages that it leaves behind is enough proof, i don’t need to go searching for an elephant.
but let me modernize that adage for the sake of the law: i may not be able to proof that an elephant passed through a village, but i can proof that an elephant “DID NOT” pass through the village. with regards to this case the claims that miss logan makes should be easy to dispel if its false! we may not be able to substantiate her claims but disproving it should be an easier task because of the amount of Egyptian agencies she claimed she came in contact with! how difficult is it to get just one Egyptian soldier to come forward and say “no, we didn’t rescue miss logan from any assault.” Or tell the world in what state/condition they met her? what exactly has the Egyptian government said on this matter? This is a shameful allegation for any country and if the Egyptian people is being so blatantly accused with such an easily discreditable lie, what have they done about it.
Ms logan lying that she was raped in that crowd is equal to an Egyptian woman claiming she was raped in the superbowl (NFL), and rescued by the home team and taken to a Kennedy hospital! To tell it’s a lie wouldn’t be that difficult would it? What would the team and hospital doctors stand to gain by lying that they never saw her after the assault? So the same applies in this case. With all the agencies involved how come its so strangely difficult to point out her lie.
The absence of certain evidence in a crime scene is in itself a point for suspicion.
Frederick, the person who wrote this comment has pretended to be an Egyptian among other fake personalities. His e mail address is Lambretti79@live.co.uk and has commented under the following names:
Ideodaniach (the “Egyptian”)
Trent, check out this footage:
Pause at minute 3:07 and watch in full screen. This is when the “tournante”, as Ideodaniach rightly describes it, actually begins, You can see the commotion, you see the men pulling at her clothes. She IS isolated. She is TOTALLY surrounded and no one on the outskirts would have had a clue what was going on.. But even if they did, you’re telling me they would have risked they’re lives for someone who had been identified as an Israeli? Would you have tried to fight that mob?
With regards to her going to the ground, she herself has confirmed it. When she mentions “looking up” as they took pictures of her with their cellphones.
Do you work for CBS? Whose ass are you trying to cover?
In a nutshell, yes, people would intervene once the realization of what was happening became known. Consider a completely different analogy to see how the dynamic works: After a car accident, have you ever noticed why traffic slows down in the traffic lanes going in the opposite direction? It is because people slow down to see “what is going on.” This slow-down is not immediate, but it builds as more and more people slow down to see what is happening until eventually, there is gridlock.
That exact same dynamic would be in play within the scene being described. Initially, there would be a “slow-down,” with curious onlookers wondering what was happening….until it became apparent that was happening was a Bad Thing, then one or two bystanders go after one or two participants, which in turn brings in more attention, leading to more people becoming involved until finally a flashpoint is reached. You can see this phenomenon happening time after time in any scene such as the one that happened to Lara – the initial moments of confusion, uncertainty, followed by members taking action.
Note that the attack began to subside once the mob stumbled onto the women’s camp. If your assertion is correct, that “no one would dare intervene in the fury of the mob,” then those women would have been raped just like Lara, or at least brutalized. Heck, instead of one woman to brutalize, the mob now has additional targets. But that did not happen. Instead, the attack began to diminish, although it did not cease entirely. The soldiers had to fight their way through to Lara, but I will note that there is no mention that the mob turned its fury to the women who “denied the mob its prey.”
As for Lara going to the ground, of course she did. I am not saying she didn’t – when you are getting punched, kicked, slapped, and assaulted I suppose it would be very difficult to remain on one’s feet. But just because she was on the ground did not mean she stayed on the ground – remember, if she did and the attackers then used that time to vaginally rape her, the mob is now stationary. Nothing in the report from Lara suggests the mob was stationary, instead, she was dragged and carried.
I’m starting to believe that you are Lara’s husband disguising himself on here, trying to prevent the whole truth from being told. What is wrong with you? If this strory is too graphic or you are too sensitive, stop getting involved with it. You obviouslyt can’t take the brutality of these facts.
Nobody in the crowd helped her. It was the soldiers who, finally convinced by the women, had to fight there way through to get to Lara. The others simply watched the whole thing happen with amusement, and quite frankly with a certain degree of arousal.
Lara wasn’t dragged along for the full 45 minutes. She spent the majority of this time on the ground being assaulted. It was only after 45 minutes of being brutally violated and she had become a complete mess, that they finally decided to pick her up again and drag her over to the water tubs to wash her, so they could resume with the gangrape.
If you can’t take these descriptions of events what on earth are you going to do when the videos (as they most definitely will) finally surface and spread like wild-fire. Are you gonna create a youtube video like that Britney Spears fan and scream: “Leave Lara Alone!!!”
Get a grip with reality, please.
I think Duncan is Logan’s defense contractor husband trolling the internet with racist rape stories to try boost the nonexistent hype surrounding this tabloid joke of a story that no one believes.
Gilmore Garden’s and Duncan are the same person who wrote this comment and has pretended to be an Egyptian among other fake personalities. His e mail address is Lambretti79@live.co.uk and has commented under the following names:
Ideodaniach (the “Egyptian”)
hello Mr temoris,
i’m glad you set up this page and are taking a stance on what you said you and eyewitnesses saw. i respect your convictions and based on your credentials i don’t believe you have anything to gain by lying about it. but I’ve been trying to find details on this story for quite some time and the evidence (or lack of evidence in some instance) that keeps popping up is quite odd to say the least.
so before i put fourth my suspicion from all the time have spent searching, I’ve got a simple question for you. have you perchance now seen any of the assault videos? Your last comment was on the 8th, who knows you may have gotten it by now.
i’m asking because i’ve come to believe more journalists are getting access to it or have seen it. but each person that i suspect have seen it, suspiciously keeps quite after the fact(even those that are denying it before) or they quietly fades offline refusing to say anything. Those who claim to have seen it refused to make it public because of the level of humiliation they claim the individual in the said video experienced.
Have you by chance now seen any of the video yourself?
No, I haven’t.
I have to say that the video does confirm what Ideodaniach decalres. If you look carefully there isn’t a single woman or “family” man (father/husband) in that mob. Its all young men. There is not a chance they would have wanted to stop what was happening, if anything they wanted to get closer to actually “witness” the attack, if not film it. This happened after 1am, they (the crew) should not have still been there at that time of the night. These were a mob of thugs.
With regards to the space for manouevre, if you look at the men closest to the camera at 3:07, there are at least 2-3 yards between eah of them, therefore there was plenty of space to move about. Its almost certain they pulled her down to the ground (like she herself has admitted when referring to looking up at the cameras), then they created layers around her, pulled her limbs out and alternated in raping her.
Thankyou Ideodaniach for your contribution. It all makes perfect sense to me now.
Sebastian, the person who wrote this comment has pretended to be an Egyptian among other fake personalities. His e mail address is Lambretti79@live.co.uk and has commented under the following names:
Ideodaniach (the “Egyptian”)
I think what’s really important here is the quote “They were trying to tear my scalp off” and then “I just surrendered to the sexual assault (rape)”, and then “you couldn’t believe what they did to me”. It seems to me that no holds were barred in this frenzy and that anything that could be done to her, was done to her. She said: “They found pleasure in seeing me suffer”; “They had no mercy” and that “..the more I screamed, the more it turned them into a frenzy”.
If they were violently trying to tear her scalp off as she initially stated, then why didn’t they go all the way. What stopped them? Was it because she eventually “surrendered” to their demands and had to perform O on them? She said “they were inside me, EVERYWHERE”. It is said that when she finally made it out of the mob, the women tried to give her some water to drink because she “couldn’t breath”. Why couldn’t she breathe? What was in her mouth? Don’t want to be crude, but these are some innocent observations to add to the pot.
“Search and find”, the person who wrote this comment has pretended to be an Egyptian among other fake personalities. His e mail address is Lambretti79@live.co.uk and has commented under the following names:
Ideodaniach (the “Egyptian”)
Why are you calling Ideodaniach a troll?
He’s not spamming, he’s not offending others. As a matter of fact I found more sense and logical reasoning in his two comments than in all of the others above him. Just because someone thinks differently than you doesn’t mean he’s a troll. What does he have to gain from this? I found him to be very respectful and almost embarassed to use “bad words” like “fisted” but he’s trying to explain to us what happened and all you can do is criticize his language skills.
I’ve just watched the footgae video and the last portion shows EXACTLY what Ideodaniach is trying to explain. There are circles of me, surrounding Lara from all directions. The you men at the bottom of the screen are actually laughing when they attack Lara, so why do you think they were going to stop what was happening. They were actually finding the whole thing amusing.
Dear Ideodaniach please keep posting and tell anything else you know.
CalireBear is again the person who wrote this comment and who has pretended to be an Egyptian among other fake personalities. His e mail address is Lambretti79@live.co.uk and has commented under the following names:
Ideodaniach (the “Egyptian”)
I’ve made a little illustration to show you how a group of people can abduct a subject from a crowd just as miss logan claims.
(sorry I don’t know if I can load a picture here so I linked it above)
In my illustration the group of colored 48 men are going to abduct the green person in the center without the rest of the crowd knowing or intervening.
The key elements required are:
1. Chaos (negative or positive) – in that square that night what they
had was positive chaos, the people were celebrating their victory
2. A number of people that could fully surround the intended target
3. A designated number of people that would act as “mis-informers”(I formed that name for this discussion only. Its not in any dictionary) depending on the number of assailant and the level of chaos they may not need these.
From my illustration the green person in the middle is the intended target.
The people in blue are the main core of people that would actually surround the target.
The people in red are the “mis-informers” the success of the plan rest on the mis-informers. Their job is to prevent the normal crowd from getting into the core red group crowd. They do this by telling any of the normal crowd that is curious that there is no problem, that everything is alright or that they’re taking the victim to a safe location and they should not worry, or any other story to that effect. Mr temoris himself might have confirmed meeting a person i suspect is a “mis-informer!”
I quote him
“A blonde woman, neatly dressed with a white coat, was being dragged and pushed. It didn’t seem to me she was panicking, but rather trying to control the situation. They passed us in an moment. They were yelling “agent!, agent!”
I tried to run to intervene, “”but some Egyptians I didn’t know prevented”” me from doing it. There was nothing I could do and, as a foreign journalist, I’d surely end up being accused of being an agent too, and attacked.”
And he was right, if he had insisted on following the crowd, being a foreigner he too would have been surrounded and seriously dealt with!!
I wish he had more details on these “Egyptians” that prevented him from doing it, my suspicion would be confirmed if they too went with the crowd.
The crowd of these 48 men in my illustration would move in this order till they leave the main body of the crowd. Once that is done they could do anything they want without being disturbed or noticed. How many of you would be passing by a dark alley known to be a gang infested area and would hear a group of men laughing and would go and try to peep at what was amusing them? Even if you had the courage to go peep and you see a woman being raped, Unless you live in that neighborhood or hold some kind of recognition you wouldn’t dare try to break up the crowd would you? The best you will be able to do is run and try to alert authorities or the police!
So in accordance with ms logans story its quiet easy to have pulled her from that place and assaulted her. this kind of arrangement would not even cause a brawl like trent assumed because the people who would have fought to save her would never have known.
Olutayo, while I appreciate your picture, I do not think it reflects crowd dynamics. The individuals assaulting Lara were not perpetrating their acts in an isolated, remote area. The crowd itself was moving, not just the mob. Note the pictures and video feeds of Tahir Square, and you see a seething mass of humanity that is moving, and it is dynamic. If the attackers stopped, the crowds behind them would have literally fallen over them. Note in the video released by CBS how Lara’s team continues to be pushed forward. This is what happens in crowds like this – there is no stopping for the amount of time that is being suggested by posters within this thread. Note that the mob attacking Lara DID fall over a static group – the women in the camp.
Do I believe Lara was raped? Yes – I do. But the rape involved actions that Lara described, as this type of rape could easily have happened in a mob that was pushing its victim along. She would have been carried, dropped, kicked, groped, and violated the entire length of time, until the mob stopped when it fell over the women’s encampment.
And as far as courage, I think you underestimate how fast a mob can form. As lara found out, all it takes is one flashpoint to ignite. Rape, as described by posters in here, is anathema in a culture such as Egypt, like it is in other countries. This is not a backwater, tribal region being wracked by civil war. This is a cosmopolitan, thoroughly-modern city. An attack like the one being described would have triggered a response….and if the mob had not moved along with the massed crowds, I would wager that Lara’s experience would not have been as prolonged. People would intervene.
I am a feminist, the first person to come to the aid of a sexual assault victim. Unfortunately, I can also smell bullshit. Logan’s story is not believable beyond the parts that appeared remotely sincere. I am positive that those were the members of her crew, she was there that night and she may have been groped, hit and roughed up. The rest is innuendo or unrealistic. Dwelling on the scalping innuendo was so tacky. Playing on America’s history with Native Americans, our ‘savages’. Also, America has a spotty history with this theme of dark animal-like men ravaging pretty fragile white women (please see the 1915 film ‘The Birth of a Nation’ for further info). She was also taking advantage of American’s ignorance of Egyptian culture, describing the revolutionaries as cave people. People wanted to hear her story, no one asked what her anthropological opinion was of Egyptians on an evolutionary scale. She also made off comments like this in her AU lecture in March about invading Pakistan, referring to seeing the people of Afghanistan as seeing the “shades of brown you didn’t know existed”.
Has she always been a racist Victorian lady from a Merchant Ivory film? People here like this? I’m surprised Americans like this person. Give me Katie Couric any day. And mind you, Katie Couric left CBS News soon after this story hit. The executive producer of 60 Minutes, Jeff Fager, took over as chairman of CBS in February and co-wrote Logan’s press release. The master of tasteless sensational infotainment.
No one I know of actually took this story seriously. It was designed for racist and ignorant people. I don’t see any of my feminist magazines covering this supposed great story of a woman’s empowerment. The only supposed authorities declaring Logan’s bravery are her friends, who just happen to be journalists. Immediately after this story hit in February, Logan friend and journalist, Judith Matloff, invented this myth that female journalists cannot, yet should publicly open up about their sexual assaults. That it is brave for female journalists to make themselves the subjects of stories that draw attention to themselves, given that it is about sexual assault. These friends of Logan have written article after article declaring how brave she is. Which is interesting because Lynsey Addario, who is a brave and forthright journalist, was uncomfortable with people fixating on the sexual assault as opposed to the other forms of torture they endured. She was actually arguing against the foundation of this Logan story. Unlike Logan, who has basked in total victimization for months now, Addario spent her time arguing with the media about what it is really like to be sexually assaulted, trying to define the ordeal and defend herself from being cast as this sexually assaulted pitied victim, while her male colleagues were not (even though one of them was also sexually assaulted).
You know i think THAT is precisely the reason i hear more and more young women distancing themselves from hardcore feminists. As a man, i find it fascinating, but when reading your post here i can understand them. Feminists are Ideologists and like any other Ideology – communism, fascism – it gets ever more fanatical up to the point the “normal” people move away from then.
One thing I’ve noticed about Lara Logan is the Feminazis hate her, and always have. But what happened to Logan in Egypt makes the Feminist instincts go off, yet there can be no sympathy or even empathy for the likes of Lara Logan given the aforementioned hatred. Hence, like a short-circuit or an illegal operation on a PC, it doesn’t compute. Therefore, it must not have happened!
Just to clear up the hype, outside of her fans and some celebrity-journalist-worshipping sexual assault victims, nobody bought any of this Logan mania as far as I know. As soon as the story turned racist and no one at CBS interceded, smart people saw it for the publicity and hate-mongering stunt that it was. And Logan was not famous before this, no one had heard of her besides people who watch 60 Minutes. And those racist comments on the Logan articles, Egyptians and Muslims being called animals and savages, it started to become suspiciously repetitive. Then the same animal-savage theme was reiterated in her actual testimony. All of the rumors about her attack back in February were also in her testimony, which means she leaked those rumors to various news agencies to hype the story. We know it wasn’t witnesses because, so far, their stories do not involve flag poles, marks all over her body, being stripped, raped and mysterious chador-clad women from the 8th century defying their men and standing up to a rapist barbarian mob.
Heh. The feminists are eating their babies.
I am convinced that Lara was raped multiple times right there, bang in the centre of the square. It would have been a different story if it was 19.00 hrs in the evening because the square would have had lots of families, children and family men (fathers, uncles etc) who would have undoubtedly intervened. But the attack happened after 1:00 am. The square in those late hours had turned into a melange of young thugs and hooligans. The assailants wouldnt have had to have taken her anywhere else, because the only “other” people surrounding the mobs were simply… more thugs. Thus they did whatever they wanted with her, totally undisturbed.
“Duncan”, the person who wrote this comment has pretended to be an Egyptian among other fake personalities. His e mail address is Lambretti79@live.co.uk and has commented under the following names:
Ideodaniach (the “Egyptian”)
Some people really don’t want us talking about this case do they? (Trent, Voltairine).
This happened exactly the same with Temoris’s first blog about Lara. And so now they are going to spam this thread, prevent us from discussing what happened and then Temoris will come along and suspend the comments section.
Listen up, more and more people are discovering what REALLY happened to Lara. They are finding just about BRUTAL the brutal and sustained sexual assault actually was and they will not stop talking about it. Take note you guys, your attemtps to suppress the details of this case will not be successful.
Warning for all those participating in this discussion:
We have among us someone too badly skilled to fake identities on the web. He was first detected by his “broken English” in his pretension to be an Egyptian. This the one who whines “Just wanted to say sorry if my english is no perfect. I did no have the chance to go to oxford university. I try to watch many american movies in and read lots of books in english.”
Others seem to support him and claim to believe him. “Why are you calling Ideodaniach a troll? He’s not spamming, he’s not offending others. As a matter of fact I found more sense and logical reasoning in his two comments than in all of the others above him. Just because someone thinks differently than you doesn’t mean he’s a troll. What does he have to gain from this? I found him to be very respectful and almost embarassed to use “bad words” like “fisted” but he’s trying to explain to us what happened and all you can do is criticize his language skills.”
I feel so bad for him, poor guy! Bad boys here who bully him. But they are all the same person.
As blog manager, I can see the e mails you left Mr “Ideodaniach” or whatever, if you’re gonna keep doing these tricks, you gotta be smarter.
The next “persons” left this e mail address to leave their comments: Lambretti79@live.co.uk
Ideodaniach (sounds too Irish for an Egyptian, doesn’t it?)
If anyone is paying you to intervene and weight on the discussion, they are wasting their money.
Add “Kenneth” to the list, he commented while I was writing.
Hardy har har! Light the perverts up Temoris!
On side note, I do believe Logan’s misfortune was bad as she intimated in her interview. But I also think instigators of what happened to Logan were probably people assigned to keep track of her from State Security, and those were likely same people who detained her week before…and might have had personal grudge or score to settle resulting from that earlier detainment. Judging from the commenters and such, you’ve got to agree with me Temoris that Logan is good at agitating people, even people she doesn’t even know!
On that note, is that how state security worked in your experience Temoris? Did prominent journalists get ‘minders’ or somebody tailing them a’la old Soviet Union during the whole Egypt revolution?
They normally do in authoritarian and not-so authoritarian countries. That’s why I prefer discretion and not staying in the big hotels most journalists stay at. In Egypt, journos where awaited and assaulted just outside one of those hotels, and even there’s an account of a mob trying to break in and chase journos to their rooms. I think they failed.
In the other hand, Al Jazeera was a lot, but a lot more dangerous to state security than Lara Logan or any US media. Al Jazeera’s signal reached in Arabic every Egyptian and Arab home, in the first place, and secondly, their many crews got information that Western networks could hardly reach.
In Libya, all of my colleagues who have died were shot in combat, except for an Al Jazeera cameraman whose crew was followed, misled and ambushed. So I think they’d go for them (or other Arab journos) before, in Egypt as in most Arab countries.
Of course Western and all journos were harrassed. But rather opportunistically. I don’t think we were their main target.
That is good point about Al Jazeera. And that’s why I think there was some personal animosity Logan had engendered with somebody in her previous detainment. And that person(s) set that crowd in motion against Logan.
Seriously, only two reasons I think that outside of circumstantial connect-the-dots is because attacking her in particular isn’t rational, even by the measure of her attractiveness. There were lots of good-looking female Western journalists – amongst hundreds of other attractive western or western-dressed women – in the square that night. Why just her? Bad luck?
Maybe…but that singular bad luck combined with what obviously is Logan’s intrinsic talent to draw strong reactions – good and bad – from people who know her, or even know of her (look at some your comments…wow!), suggests to me there was some settling of scores and perceived slights involved in Logan’s terrible misfortune that night.
There could have been a personal animosity. Political or even in a lower level. Suppose she rejected somebody’s advances –which in her position, she must need to do more than often. Or whatever, someone hated her coverage, or the CBS, or all US journos… who knows.
But as I and others have pointed out, mob attacks like this happened to others too. Like that Arte channel crew I’ve mentioned, against whom I don’t believe anyone had animosity.
Looking to your argument again… I don’t know how she presented her detainment by soldiers a week before. Maybe the army hated it. Still, they’re the ones who protected her after her deliverance to them.
That doesn’t mean that some of the army can’t –and don’t– act independently. These were thugs. So maybe a particular officer, or police boss, politician… too much to speculate.
From what I understand, in Egypt, there are several groups that have enough power to assault people in such a way as Ms. Logan describes: the army (whom I do not believe were involved the attack), the secret police of the former regime, the regular police, autonomous neighborhood police branches, regime sponsored gangs (baltagiya), random street gangs, radom groups of hooligans, random punks from the slums taking advantage of the protests to cause trouble, etc.
It is very possible a group was involved and not merely a spontaneous gathering of rowdy men. Above, I provided you with anecdotal testimony from half a dozen people (including other journalists) saying large organized groups of 50 to 100 people attacked them and groped them that night. Large groups of pro-Mubarek supporters attacked Anderson Cooper and other journalists, threatened Christiane Amanpour on camera, etc. A band of pro-Mubarek supporters invaded Tahrir on Black Wednesday. How is it at all unlikely that those who attacked Ms. Logan were a large group of thug rather than random people whipped into a frenzy?
CBS called this a group of 200-300 men, clearly distinguishing them from the large group of protesters filling the square. This group was rowdy and had bad intentions. Some have called them a “bad element” in the square.
For those of you trying to say that someone, surely, would have intervened. No. No one is going to intervene when a group of 50 to 100 men is in full riot mode. Look at the riots in L.A. and Louisiana. Why aren’t people intervening in Congo and Sudan when women are gang raped by soldiers? Why? Because they will be killed.
Aside from those charged with her security and the army, no one would have had the power to intervene that night. Some women took a bold stand but didn’t seem to do much good until the soldiers show up.
I fully believe Ms. Logan’s testimony to be both logical and plausible.
Lara Logan’ testimony will always outweigh that of Temoris and his friends until someone provides physical evidence to the contrary. She is a primary witness, the primary witness. He was merely a bystander who saw very little of the incident (if he even saw the same incident).
If video or pictures surface, will Temoris admit he made a mistake? If verifiable and corroborated testimony from people involved in the incident surfaced, will he admit his mistake? Already, she has the testimonies of her producer, her cameraman, her bodyguard, the physicians and nurses who treated her, the Marines who welcomed her to the US Embassy after the attack, etc. She is pictured speaking at the IMI at American University one month after the attack with a wound marking her chest. All of this very effectively contradicts the Temoris account. Also, the fact that this woman is an 18 year veteran war correspondent with nothing to gain by fabricating such a tale lends to her credibility.
Temoris says he saw a blond woman in a white jacket hustled by him in the dark surrounded by angry men. His friend Ferky says he followed the crowd for a minute or so before being brushed aside and losing sight of the woman and the crowd. Later (after an undetermined time span), a couple of young men are said to have escorted a woman (not described as blond or wearing a white jacket) to a tent where she saw a physician. This account could describe an entirely separate incident.
All of these people may have seen one of the many other journalists or activists attacked that night. They might not have seen the Lara Logan attack at all. Temoris and his friends could be telling the absolute truth about a completely different incident. How would they know? Temoris said himself that he had no idea the woman he saw was Lara Logan until he heard about her attack much later. None of these men had ever seen or heard of Lara Logan prior to the attack. None of them have said they could clearly identify the woman they saw as being Lara Logan.
That possibility aside, come on people, a grown woman got on international television and said very plainly that she was attacked. Until any evidence that doesn’t amount to anecdotal rambling surfaces, she deserves the benefit of the doubt.
All Temoris can claim as primary source material is his account of seeing a woman whisked by him for upwards of ten seconds. That’s it. His interviews with others are interesting but they don’t outweigh the testimony of the victim herself. Quit building a conspiracy around this man’s claim.
Hello Mr temoris
In your profession as a journalist/photography, the rape victims that you met, how eager where they to discuss their ordeal? Many people unlike you have never seen a rape victim in the early phase of their ordeal, You would agree its a painful psychological trauma that have led many to suicide.
I’m asking this because you compared Lynsey Addario ordeal to what miss logan claimed happened. I think Lynsey Addario found it easy to talk about her ordeal was that she was only groped, miss logan’s ordeal is a full outright rape, and a gang rape is even worse. Surely you can understand why there would be delay in her coming forward to talk about it.
Let us try a little bit of analysis here. Let us agree for the case of this discussion that we have two irrefutable end points:
1. Mr temoris did see a woman being taken away that night
2. Miss logan got raped later that night
Our aim is two fill in the space between these two events with a combination of plausible scenario that would bridged these two.
If we decide to factor in the account of your two witnesses this leds us to three scenarios-
Scene one: your witness did see her handed over to the soldiers. The only way she still ended up being raped be that the soldiers handed her over to the crowd later. Not plausible.
Scene two: your witness did follow the crowd but for whatever reason, lied about what happened later.
Scene three: what if the timing was totally off? Or could the woman you saw have been somebody else? (hey, could be)
It just doesn’t add up. I’ll confess i’m getting totally confused here. Its difficult to believe she would lie at such extreme levels.
Scene one: Not plausible.
Scene two: I totally trust my witnesses.
Scene three: I was there, I recognise Lara Logan and the timing was right.
You can find it difficult to believe. it’s your right.
Then it´s either you lying or Lara Logan lying. Because the accounts differ tremendously. It´s actually fascinating because for the first time we see how strong perceptions differ even with two professional journalists with all the tools and methods of their profession.
Purely fascinating. But nonetheless: THe lying is now almost the ONLY possible answer, because you state you know Lara Logan and you´re sure it was her. You didn´t say: I was there, I THINK or I BELIEVE i recognised her. You say you did. Fact. Nuff Said.
One of my curiosity is this, i’m not sure how many people here understand how the torrent file sharing technology works. but unlike the normal “direct” download that is usually hosted on a single computer, once a torrent download spreads its extremely difficult to stop. if Microsoft could not stop their expensive software that is over 5 gigabyte(5000mb) in size from being download through torrent, how can CBS on account of a hoax succeed in stopping a 28mb “lara logan rape assault video” from being downloaded!! no please analyse it – Microsoft loses millions of dollars on account of these illegal torrent sharing, they’ve fought tooth and nail to have it stopped to no avail, court cases upon court cases. But Surprisingly All the confirmed logan rape assault video’s on torrent has been successfully blocked!
How can CBS and lara logan succeed in blocking their supposedly none existent “false” rape video while software giants like Microsoft, autodesk and so on needs a law suit to “attempt” to block theirs, because all other methods failed. And blocking torrent downloads is not an ” i-call-a-hacker/programmer-to-help” type of blocking action, i’m talking about a F.B.I -C.I.A high- level- military executive order blocking action here!!!
like i said before i have never seen so much youtube accounts blocked or deleted on account of any video as much as this one! you try and check. any site that claims to have it, by the time you get there, it’s blocked!! if the video is a fake how come someone is going to such extremes to make sure it doesn’t get circulated.
now this is my own conspiracy theory
1. did mr tomaris see a woman being dragged away that night, yes
2. was lara logan brutally raped before she left Egypt, yes
3. are there circulating rape video’s – yes
4. is there a high level action stopping the videos from being circulated – yes.
let me now get to the meat of my logic
now i beg you riddle me this. what will happens if the American citizens are blessed with a horrid graphic video of a popular blond pure white beautiful “American” Caucasian woman, tied spread eagle on the bare floor, butt naked and being raped in all possible ways by a crowd of men of an Islamic nation? What will happen to obamas peace policy, his constant friendship plan with the Islamic nations that the republicans and some citizens believe is a waste of time? what will happen to the rising tension between the Muslim or Arab citizens and the American citizens who are still reeling from 9/11? is it true that miss Logan got a call from the president of the united states himself? could they have made a deal that in return for painting a less graphic picture of her ordeal they would put every resource available to them to ensure the humiliating videos don’t get out?
So many puzzling questions.
There is no 28mb video that has circulated featuring any footage of the attack. I downloaded all of the relevant torrents before they stopped being seeded. One was women doing aerobics. Another featured a female reporter having a stroke on camera. Another featured cavemen raping a cavewoman in some sort of B movie. The supposed “after rape” video was not Lara Logan. These were all hoaxes. People stopped seeding these torrents because they were crap.
The FBI isn’t blocking these videos. It the FBI could block videos, they’d be blocking everything on LiveLeak and YNC and celebrity sex tapes and all of the illegal downloading of copyrighted material. They do not have this capability.
If video had surfaced, someone would have posted a censored still shot from the video somewhere. No video has surfaced. Stop making that claim unless you can produce the video.
Right. You are 100% right with all your analyzing: The FBI has not got the time and the people to do a complete control over the internet…and if they would, they would of course protect Big Business INterests.
Ditto with the argument of the censored still shot: Nice idea, and yes, that would be a way to post such evidence without slipping into unintentional porn.
How come you spelt my name correctly every other time and now you turned me into a tomaris?
2. apparently not
3. I don’t think so
4. you watch too many movies
Now, according to you, a blond’s rape is more important for the US national security than stopping any other video or information on abuses in irak, Afghanistan and so on. You and others have turne this in a irrelevant discussion, full of projections of your porn minds and absurd claims of CIA plots –as if the US government would dedicate your taxes to set up the biggest internet blockade ever!
I’ve lost too much time in this debate and I’m not going to waste more with you, unless you come up with a solid argument.
Hello Mr Temoris,
i apologize about getting your name wrong. I usually type inside Microsoft word before copying and pasting it in the forums, i try to correct all errors, but i stayed up quite late and that was an error in my typing ^_^ , sorry.
I guess you’re right, I agree my conspiracy theory does have too much holes in it. Okay I take it back ^_^
if we all agree on certain news as fact about miss logans history in egypt, we all agree that long before this incident the pro-mubarak police have been harassing mrs logan and her crew and other reporters.
now here’s the puzzle. in who’s interest is she acting on to lie that she was raped on the very day mubarak and his cronies left office? i would understand if this lie came before mubarak left. we would believe she just wants to get back at the president. to tarnish is image and rally the world against the “evil” Mubarak and his secret police.
Can this be a personal vendetta by miss logan and her crew against the Egyptian president who has constantly harassed her? No, the culprit already left the throne that day. So maybe a personal grudge against the Egyptian people perhaps? Even though this is almost not possible because she seem to have enjoyed much support from the Egyptian citizens themselves throughout her stay in the country, she could have chosen a less self humiliating lie to tell, one that would be difficult to disprove and just as effective, like lying that she was raped by a lone soldier in a dark alley or perhaps two soldiers.
Can this be a personal beef by CBS station against the Egyptian people? Maybe all those workers there planned it perhaps, a bit over the top wouldn’t you say. And what do they stand to gain by humiliating their star reporter, the station itself being accused of complacency in the accident, gross irresponsibility and careless management people say. No, i doubt if its worth the effort.
could this be an elaborate smear campaign by the present American government against the Egyptians? Lets analyze that angle too. I presume most of us are aware of the American political scene, the democrats vs the republicans. president Obama’s policy has been based partly on encouraging friendship with the middle east and other so called “anti-American” countries. He has been taking serious hits from both republicans and his citizens for the effort, his constant foray unto enemy soil. So what would be the administrations gain in orchestrating an elaborate lie that would serve to undermine his very own administrations major policy of reaching out to the Islamic countries, an action that he’s being taking serous attack for from the republicans? Maybe its aimed at the government Mubarak regime, but he left already.
assuming you are sitting in your house enjoying yourself, then your 5 year old son comes down from upstairs and tells you “daddy, there’s an old man with some drawings(tattoo)on his face in judy’s room promising her a bag of sweets if she would touch his penis.”
now let us assume you have been sitting in the living room all day facing the one door that could led into the house, would you ignore your 5yr olds claims since you’re sure nobody could have gone into your 6 yr old daughters room? to what gain would your son cook up such a disgusting and elaborate lie? even if your son had tried previously to get you out of the living room so he could watch cartoons on the tv, could he be telling you this big lie now just because he wants to watch tv? i tell you, you will jump out of that chair faster than a comet and run upstairs!!
So why would you believe this 5yr old kid against the evident impossibility? Because there is not much to gain from such a specific easily disprovable lie. And when daddy gets upstairs and finds that he lied. He would know that his punishment would be sever and swift surely not worth the few seconds he would have spent with the tv before getting caught.
In the same vain why should we call this womans claims a lie. What amount of hatred could she harbour that would let her go to this extent? What if she is proven to have lied to the whole world, was it worth putting her career on such a stunt. What about her crew, even the Egyptian guards and the young Egyptian translator she mentioned, are they all waging their dignity to support miss logan in her lie? Is the station she’s working for also willing to risk all they’re worth for this?
If miss logan had said she was raped by two soldiers in a dark alley, it would have been less risky, impossible perhaps to disprove. Its her word against two faceless assailants. But now she has drawn about over 30 people in her lie – the camera crew with her, the Egyptian guards, the Egyptian soldiers she claimed came to her rescue, the doctor that saw her after rescue, whole CBS company, the amrican embassy and doctors in the states. All these people drawn into this mighty hoax? Is it truly possible?
It doesn’t add up gentlemen, it doesn’t. Let us for a second drop all bias or feeling that we have against this woman and truly analyse this case. It makes absolutely no sense to lie
i see no win for miss logan, the CBS, the American government or the American people or the Egyptian government or the Egyptian people in this accusation, the only person who would have been affected by such a lie is Mubarak himself, but we all agree that she claims the assault came well after Mubarak left office. So what is the lie intended for? only seriously mentally ill patients can tell a lie that without hoping to gain something from that lie. in all cases of confirmed false rape accusation – there is always a purpose, be it a vendetta, for monetary gain or blackmail.
But there appears to be none in this case.
So is there another detail that everybody is aware of that i don’t. I see no motive for her to fabricate this extremely expensive lie.
Thanks for the articles and input on Lara Logan’s situation in Tahrir Square. Its been a very interesting discussion, and I’ve learned a lot about modern Egypt in the process.
Despite my own residual curiosity in whatever happened to Hillary Clinton’s ‘Task Force’ I have to admit though this is so old news. And Logan herself would be first to say what happened to her was a nasty infamous incident, yet inconsequential in the broader sweep of history in which it occurred.
A lot of far more important, interesting things have happened in the world since then as well. Huge earthquakes, melting nuclear reactors, civil wars, death of Osama…its been a pretty busy past couple months in history. The continued fixation on Lara Logan’s misfortune in light of such things is baffling…all the more so given there’s no real new information pertaining to the event, just gory details of her trauma. That’s all the 60 Minutes interview was too, all the interesting Whodunnit questions they punted on in lieu of Logan’s accounting of her misery. Yawn.
I bet no one’s more frustrated by the persistent fascination with the mess more than Logan herself. I don’t get the impression she’s trying to take advantage of a bad situation, but who wishes everyone else would let it go so she can get on with her own life beyond the caricature of her in peoples’ minds resulting from the ordeal. I do feel sorry for her that way. Its not just the trauma of the crime, but the purgatory of perception a public figure like her must deal with forever after something like this is a grotesque gift that will never stop giving unfortunately. Sad.
So thanks again Temoris. I’ll keep up with your blog though, you have interesting posts outside context of Lara Logan.
Paul, I’ve always suspected you were behind the “Full Report” videos posted on YouTube because many of the claims matched yours from the previous blog threads and the pictures of Tahrir in the video match those you provided. If that’s true, wow, you sure sound like a hypocrite here. But, you know, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. You seem like a nice enough guy.
My feeling is that Logan focussed on what can be known about the attack: why and how it happened, what happened, the severity of the attack, how she’s recovering and moving on, etc. Proving who was responsible is just not possible at this point. Any blame they postulated would have been pure conjecture so they refrained from going there.
It’s been great to see her reports on Pakistan. She has resumed her work and plans to return to the field soon. She’s moved on and so has most everyone but Temoris. But, you know, when someone shows up claiming it’s all a hoax, people are going to be upset and make replies.
I’m sure Temoris is a fine gentleman but he’s very obviously wrong about all this. It’s great that you two have become friends and I wish you well but, come on, dude. The stuff he’s saying here is absurd. Maybe the media makes crap up out of the blue in his country but our media in the US doesn’t. If she were found to be making this up, she’d be fired, banned from journalism, sued for millions by CBS and left destitute, face possible jail time, etc. Claiming that’s what is going on here is paramount to denying the holocaust or trying to prove the moon landing was a fake. It’s silly. It’s UFO conspiracy theory nonsense. Don’t encourage him.
First off, I have nothing to do with any ‘full report’ video crap on youtube. I haven’t watched them much less made them.
Second, outside of Whodunnit I really don’t give a shit about what happened to Lara Logan in Tahrir Square. Bad thing happened to her; she’s tough, has a lot to live for, and is a multi-millionaire…cry me a river she’ll be fine. And she’d be first one to tell you to stop worrying about her personally and get a life frankly.
Third, that 60 Minutes interview was a cop-out. And Lara Logan – war reporter with more than a decade of experience in Muslim world hotspots – being ‘surprised’ at the misogyny baked into a lot of those societies strikes me as naive at best. I’m not saying she ‘asked for it’ or shouldn’t have been there or anything like that, but not knowing the society and endemic risks? Her? C’mon man.
Third, I can’t say who’s right or wrong in regards to what Temoris saw. Maybe he didn’t get the full picture, missed some details, got distracted, whatever. I don’t think Temoris is a bald-faced liar either. And he’s the only one who actually mentioned that he saw anything to do with Lara Logan in Tahrir Square for two months. And given he’s the one who provides his blog for comments from the likes of us, I don’t really find anything wrong with ‘encouraging’ him.
Especially because she is a specalist for hotspots in the muslim world i believe she underestimated egypt. And why wouldn´t she? Do you know many people who travel to PAKISTAN for the holidays? Or to AFGHANISTAN? No? Big Surprise! But EGYPT is a MAJOR Tourist country. Heck, it´s one of the major destinations for europeans!
No, it was totally logical to assume something like this would not happen in Kairo. Especially with some bodyguards. And at another time there wouldn´t have been any trouble. It was a special case.
“Third, that 60 Minutes interview was a cop-out. And Lara Logan – war reporter with more than a decade of experience in Muslim world hotspots – being ‘surprised’ at the misogyny baked into a lot of those societies strikes me as naive at best. I’m not saying she ‘asked for it’ or shouldn’t have been there or anything like that, but not knowing the society and endemic risks? Her? C’mon man.”
86% of Egyptian women claim to have suffered from sexual harassment. What no one is saying is that 83% of women in America claim to have suffered from sexual harassment. It’s a 3% difference. I think she did use that as a crutch or an excuse, maybe, a little bit. But, really, having a bodyguard, two drivers/bodyguards, a fixer, a cameraman and a producer, she had every right to feel like her security was adequate for conditions in Tahrir that night.
Her team must not have been aware that the army had drawn security that evening. I’m sure they announced it somewhere, maybe even on television, but Lara and her team were flying into the country, driving to Tahrir, walking around, etc. They may not have been notified.
I wonder if Temoris was notified that security would be drawing down that night. Temoris? Was there an announcement of that sort?
You are being wise, Paul. This is boring and just material for bored people and boring perverts.
I’m quitting this discussion, unless someone writes something really interesting or new evidence.
Read my post upthread.
Either Lara Logan told a very specific lie, or you need to pack this up. Do you believe the story about the trauma nurse or not? There is a lot of elaborate fantasy some of the trolls here have posted. There is also a very specific claim that Lara Logan has major injuries (although THAT part isn’t specified, and we don’t need to know that) in her genital area.
I copy what I wrote upthread:
You can display all the arrogance you want but you are nobody to tell me when to “pack this up”.
There’s nothing in those segments that hasn’t been discussed in this and the previous post on the issue.
I’m from the US and just happened upon this blog recently, but have been intrigued by the debate going on here. Obviously, Lara’s account on 60 minutes painted a completely different scene from the one you and your witnesses saw. To be honest, the immediate conclusions I came to were either: a) you witnessed the attack, and Lara and CBS lied–not exaggerated, as there are too many discrepancies in my opinion for her story and your story to be one in the same. Or b) you and your friends witnessed a different event, and the attack described in the news happened somewhere else or later on in the evening. However, I find this article to be completely one-sided. If you were really “concerned with the damage that misinformation or partial information can do,” I would think you have to consider that what you witnessed was quite possibly not the attack. It was reported that Lara and her team were in the Square for nearly an hour before the incident. More than that, she probably appeared to have a “human chain” protecting her the entire time since she had 5 men with her. Still, you’re quick to downplay this scenario with, “Maybe it happened later, but…” That’s a pretty big “maybe” that could lead to some serious inaccurate conclusions on your part.
In addition, the whole ‘we can’t trust anything CBS says because CBS is the western media and they are all lying and biased because they’re racist or sexist or have a political agenda’…I have to say, in the same way that you accuse some Americans of stereotyping Arab societies, you’re a bit quick yourself to stereotype Western media. So anytime there is a negative news story about Muslims or Arabs-it’s racism? If this was in fact a true story, and Logan was raped by a group of Egyptians yelling ‘Jew,’ would you rather the media censor it? I’m sure, as with most media outlets, there are and will always be bias stories. However, to suggest that this story is a complete fabrication is a BIG accusation. If a national news organization or correspondent were ever revealed to have made up a story for any reasons, they would lose serious credibility. This is probably why it is a good thing that the US has multiple large and competitive news corporations, because the stakes are too high to purposely risk publishing false info.
Anyhow, those are my immediate thoughts on this, though I probably could have organized them better. And this isn’t personal by the way. I just like to spark discussion.
Well put Roo12. I think Temoris does find negative news about Egyptians is racism, even if it is true and accurately reported (as evidenced in his title, chosen over a more obviously appropriate title like “Lara Logan Lies About Being Raped” or something of that nature). He is so concerned about the image of Muslims/Arabs, that he excludes not only the truth, but logic and reason to his story while adding fantasy, unreliable accounts and worse of all an egregious accusation towards a victim and fellow colleague. All the while, he has no concern about anti-Americanism (perpetuating another form of prejudice equal to racism) and slandering the whole western media as if it is united in conspiracy.
By the way, while its obvious why people would not want to post videos of Lara Logan being brutally raped, you can bet the farm that if there was a video of her in Tahrir square just being lightly groped and pinched (as Temoris claims), it would have gone viral by now. You can also count on the fact that such a video would exist given all the people and cell phones in the square at the time.
I don’t think Logan’s making anything up. I think her personal account of what happened in the square is accurate to her experience, which is to say it was horrible.
But the western media absolutely earns the skepticism it engenders from everybody, including most Americans. Look at the flubs in past ten years…
Iraq War and WMD’s: Western press took the party line hook-line-sinker.
Valerie Plame: Stupid cocktail-party gossip set navel-gazing, all while being utterly manipulated and discarded by the likes of Karl Rove.
John Edwards: The fucking Enquirer had to figure that one out.
NY Times: Several cases of journalists flat-out making articles up.
Rep. Jane Harman: Big wiretapping scandal between AIPAC, Harman, and the Bush Administration brushed under the rug.
Barack Obama: MSM in ‘States for the most part are his bitch, except for FOX News…which is the right wing MSM at this point. Utterly polarized.
Pundits: All those geniuses in think-tanks and MSM-paid consulting gigs and Ivy League degrees who prognosticate
Jessica Lynch: Straight made-the-fuck-up story by Pentagon eaten like chum by MSM, who again took the bait hook, line, and sinker.
So yeah, skepticism is warranted with Western media.
You wouldn’t know about any of those scandals without the MSM. It polices itself.
“So anytime there is a negative news story about Muslims or Arabs-it’s racism?” No.
“If this was in fact a true story, and Logan was raped by a group of Egyptians yelling ‘Jew,’ would you rather the media censor it?” No.
“I’m sure, as with most media outlets, there are and will always be bias stories. However, to suggest that this story is a complete fabrication is a BIG accusation.” I’m happy to find anotherone who believes everything the TV tells him.
Thanks for dropping by, roo12. If you have anything to say that hasn’t been discussed yet and makes sense, don’t hesitate to comment.
“I’m happy to find anotherone who believes everything the TV tells him.”
As opposed to random journalists we’ve never met from across the world? Why should we trust you more than her? Why should we only be skeptical of her and not you? You claim not to have anything to gain from reporting what you saw but the argument could easily be made that you do.
This just in, Iman al-Obeidi was not raped by Gaddafi’s troops in Libya! Temoris saw the whole thing and they were just playing cards. lol
This discussion seems to be over. I’m not closing it as I promised I’d keep it open for seven days. But everything has been said and unless anyone comes up with something new that makes sense, I’m stopping here.
Thanks to all those who tried to make this an enriching and interesting conversation.
Mr. Temoris, I have to admit that you have been the only journalist that has shown any intrest as of what happened that night in Tahir square. No other news media has done any investigative journalism regarding this event which to me is a shame since this assualt happened to one of their own. The media silence whether meant to protect Lara Logan is disengenious at best there may never be any justice as to what happened to her. My only issue is with the silence in Egypt over this assault I have searched and searched the Arab blogs and to be blunt it is as if the severity of this assualt is always minimized or just apologized to death. Why has no real credible Egyptian eyewitnesses come forward? One thing we do know for certain is even from Lara Logans admission is that there is video phone evidence of this sexual rape. Many questions to be answered and this blog and a few others only have guesses as to what really happened that night. Guess all we have is Lara Logans word she and her crew are the ones that will have to carry those memories.
If nothing else, those who want to make a difference for journalists (or for women in general) can get involved in the many reputable charity/support organizations.
first of all, I think Temoris testimony is sincere. I would just add up a few things. When younger, I’ve been involved in demonstrations, some very violent where I had to fight to get through. I know mobs and how violence can suddenly burst out in a few minutes; also it is a question of point of view. At the end a of a crowded square you seize only a piece of the action, let’s say 60 yards around. After, how to know?
Secondly, I’m really surprised about all the net pop up which is for me quite sadistic and perverted. I’m not here to judge about Lara Logan: her skills, her background, CBS(for me the first responsible), the eventual little media plots etc…But it is her body, soul and mind. When you read all these threads, all these people saying “poor lara, wish you a quick recover, how disgusting”etc and five posts later: “do you have a link, have you seen the shots? I can’t believe! “it’s just becoming insane.
Just people wanting to satisfy their voyeurism and watching a woman degraded publicly! Where is the quest for truth then? I don’t deny there are questions to ask, but not that way.
Temoris, Everything has been said?? I’m disappointed that you did not talk to more witnesses about the attack. I bookmarked a guy on Facebook back in February who claimed to have helped rescue her. He was on one of those ‘Sorry Lara Logan’ pages. He described how he was a part of a group of “youth” that were trying to protect her. He also stated that she was taken to see a doctor afterwards. Consider contacting these people. It makes more sense to get the story straight just for the record rather than arguing with people. Also, talking to witnesses is probably less frustrating. This was not just a sexual assault, but a visible mob attack, there is nothing wrong with talking to witnesses.
If you are mainly interested in convincing people that it was a group of men that rescued her, then you should know that the Egyptian army also used this mob attack to slander the protesters back in February and the details are more like your story. They say she was rescued by a group of youth and a soldier (I’m assuming “youth” is a reference to the protesters?). There is nothing about a group of soldiers, beating back the mob or her being carried out of the mob. I am sure the army would have used those details if they could have. The only woman mentioned is after she is rescued and is back in the soldier occupied area.
I’d like to have interviewed more people. I’d like to have the story from the first moment she was attacked until the end. There’s a variety of witnesses whose testimonies would be relevant.
Still, Logan’s story was no more than a side story in the Egyptian revolutions and the Arab spring. Regardless of exactly what was it that she suffered, she’s only one more journalist among many who went through hardship. An Egyptian colleague was shot and killed by a sniper. Four of my colleagues were killed in Libya. Others elsewhere.
I mean, Logan’s attack was not a main concern for me at the time nor is now. I was busy enough reporting everyday for a number of news outlets. I hoped other journalists would do some more reporting, journalism is more like a chorus, a collective work, to the benefit of the readers. I’m disappointed no one did it seriously.
My position stands. We learned in this discussion a lot from some participants, like Trent who taught us about a therapist’s approach to victims (which is necessarily different from that of a journalist).
We learned bad things, as well. Lara Logan’s worst enemies are among her fans, people who pretending to feel her pain delight themselves in projecting their wildest sexual fantasies on her.
In any case, the whole thing has made Logan a lot more well-known than she was, beyond CBS’s borders, while helping bigotry to grow. Racists and sexists think they got new solid arguments to dismiss female journalists and victims of rape, and to promote hatred against Muslims and Egyptians.
I’m happy to drop the issue. There are too many important things to report on beyond the damage one person suffered and this person’s false claims. I’ll only get back to it if really new evidence surfaces.
I’m closing the thread now, on May 12th, 11.31 Colombia time, seven days after I posted the article, as was announced.
But before that, I want to highlight the comment a participant named Voltairine left three days ago, as it might have passed unnoticed in this long discussion and I find it illuminating.
Salaam shalom. Peace be upon you all. Que tengan todos el privilegio de la paz.
So here’s Voltairine again:
I am a feminist, the first person to come to the aid of a sexual assault victim. Unfortunately, I can also smell bullshit. Logan’s story is not believable beyond the parts that appeared remotely sincere. I am positive that those were the members of her crew, she was there that night and she may have been groped, hit and roughed up. The rest is innuendo or unrealistic. Dwelling on the scalping innuendo was so tacky. Playing on America’s history with Native Americans, our ‘savages’.
Also, America has a spotty history with this theme of dark animal-like men ravaging pretty fragile white women (please see the 1915 film ‘The Birth of a Nation’ for further info). She was also taking advantage of American’s ignorance of Egyptian culture, describing the revolutionaries as cave people. People wanted to hear her story, no one asked what her anthropological opinion was of Egyptians on an evolutionary scale. She also made off comments like this in her AU lecture in March about invading Pakistan, referring to seeing the people of Afghanistan as seeing the “shades of brown you didn’t know existed”.
Has she always been a racist Victorian lady from a Merchant Ivory film? People here like this? I’m surprised Americans like this person. Give me Katie Couric any day. And mind you, Katie Couric left CBS News soon after this story hit. The executive producer of 60 Minutes, Jeff Fager, took over as chairman of CBS in February and co-wrote Logan’s press release. The master of tasteless sensational infotainment.
No one I know of actually took this story seriously. It was designed for racist and ignorant people. I don’t see any of my feminist magazines covering this supposed great story of a woman’s empowerment. The only supposed authorities declaring Logan’s bravery are her friends, who just happen to be journalists. Immediately after this story hit in February, Logan friend and journalist, Judith Matloff, invented this myth that female journalists cannot, yet should publicly open up about their sexual assaults.
That it is brave for female journalists to make themselves the subjects of stories that draw attention to themselves, given that it is about sexual assault. These friends of Logan have written article after article declaring how brave she is.
Which is interesting because Lynsey Addario, who is a brave and forthright journalist, was uncomfortable with people fixating on the sexual assault as opposed to the other forms of torture they endured. She was actually arguing against the foundation of this Logan story. Unlike Logan, who has basked in total victimization for months now, Addario spent her time arguing with the media about what it is really like to be sexually assaulted, trying to define the ordeal and defend herself from being cast as this sexually assaulted pitied victim, while her male colleagues were not (even though one of them was also sexually assaulted).
By: Voltairine on 9 May, 2011
at 11:52 am
Just to clear up the hype, outside of her fans and some celebrity-journalist-worshipping sexual assault victims, nobody bought any of this Logan mania as far as I know.
As soon as the story turned racist and no one at CBS interceded, smart people saw it for the publicity and hate-mongering stunt that it was. And Logan was not famous before this, no one had heard of her besides people who watch 60 Minutes. And those racist comments on the Logan articles, Egyptians and Muslims being called animals and savages, it started to become suspiciously repetitive.
Then the same animal-savage theme was reiterated in her actual testimony. All of the rumors about her attack back in February were also in her testimony, which means she leaked those rumors to various news agencies to hype the story.
We know it wasn’t witnesses because, so far, their stories do not involve flag poles, marks all over her body, being stripped, raped and mysterious chador-clad women from the 8th century defying their men and standing up to a rapist barbarian mob.
By: Voltairine on 9 May, 2011
at 11:56 am