Tag Archives: Turkey

Gallery

Turquía: La gira inoportuna de Peña Nieto

Por Témoris Grecko / Estambul (publicado en Proceso 29/dic/2013) A Enrique Peña Nieto le tocó vivir un día histórico para Turquía, al lado, nada menos, que del presidente de ese país, Abdulá Gül. Fue una ocasión tan singular que los … Continue reading

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La conquista de la Cristiandad

Lo que Mehmet II debe haber sentido al entrar en Santa Sofía Columna Fronteras Abiertas, de Témoris Grecko Publicado en National Geographic Traveler Latinoamérica, julio de 2013 ¿Qué monumento más importante que la catedral de Santa Sofía podía haber en … Continue reading

Gallery

Turquía: La democracia del gas lacrimógeno

Por Témoris Grecko (publicado en Proceso, 9 de junio de 2013) A las nueve y media de la noche del jueves 30 de mayo, pocas horas antes de que la policía turca lanzara el ataque en Estambul que provocó una … Continue reading

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Amor en círculos

Una puerta al mundo de los dervishas del sufismo Columna Fronteras Abiertas, de Témoris Grecko Publicado en National Geographic Traveler Latinoamérica, febrero de 2013 El taxista ni nos entendía ni conocía bien la zona. El barrio de Silivrikapı no es … Continue reading

El gambito turco

Por Témoris Grecko / Ramala (publicado en Proceso, 25/sep/2011)

Un Israel que cada día se aísla más, un Egipto cerca del caos, potencias occidentales nerviosas ante el debilitamiento de su influencia y, elevándose entre tantos hundimientos, una Turquía que ha decidido reaccionar a estos cambios con un golpe de timón en su política exterior, y ha dejado atrás su doctrina de “cero problemas” con los vecinos para asumirse como el nuevo poder regional.

“Nadie podía haber previsto este escenario a principios de año, cuando el alzamiento popular en Túnez todavía parecía un evento aislado y la configuración política del Mediterráneo Oriental era la misma que había sido diseñada en los acuerdos de Campo David” (que firmaron Israel y Egipto a instancias del entonces presidente de Estados Unidos, Jimmy Carter: una alianza aceitada por 4 mil millones de dólares anuales en ayuda militar al primero y 2 mil millones al segundo, que complementaba la estrategia de seguridad israelí que ya contaba con la sólida amistad de una Turquía dócil), explica Burak Medeniyeti, politólogo de la Universidad del Bósforo.

La llegada al poder del Partido de la Justicia y el Desarrollo, del primer ministro Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, en 2002, fue el inicio de un proceso que terminaría por desmantelar el sistema de gobierno turco, en el que los militares tutelaban la democracia y daban golpes de Estado para reafirmar su posición. Erdoğan proclamó su triunfo sobre sus generales en julio, cuando la cúpula de las Fuerzas Armadas renunció.

El mandatario turco y sus correligionarios representan una combinación ideológica familiar en México: vocación religiosa con prioridades empresariales. En su esfuerzo por reformar su país, han mantenido algunas reivindicaciones de los musulmanes sin poner en peligro el laicismo del Estado y anteponiendo los intereses comerciales y de desarrollo económico. Desde que tomaron el poder (han ganado tres elecciones consecutivas, la última con el 50% de los votos sobre una participación del 80% de los electores), el PIB se ha multiplicado por tres y las exportaciones del país crecieron de 36 mil millones de dólares anuales a 114 mil millones.

CAMBIO DE POLÍTICA EXTERIOR

Ahmet Davotoğlu, embajador y asesor del primer ministro desde 2003, y nombrado en 2009 ministro de Asuntos Exteriores, fue el arquitecto de la política de “cero problemas”: Turquía debería ser un vecino cooperativo para sus vecinos. “He dicho que Turquía como Estado-nación es igual a cualquier Estado-nación de nuestra región, así sea pequeño en población o en área”, afirmó Davotoğlu al diario turco Sabah, apenas el 14 de diciembre de 2010. “No tenemos hegemonía sobre nadie”

Ahora ha compartido con Erdoğan la tarea de marcar la nueva actitud de Turquía. En una larga entrevista concedida a The New York Times, Davotoğlu anunció la intención de construir un eje Turquía-Egipto que, en momentos en que la influencia de Estados Unidos y sus socios europeos se debilita, contribuya a reconstruir los equilibrios de poder en la región.

“Este no será un eje de poder contra algún otro país, ni Israel, ni Irán ni nadie más”, le dijo al diario neoyorquino. “Será un eje de democracia de las dos naciones más grandes de la región, del norte al sur, del Mar Negro hasta el Valle del Nilo en Sudán”.

En años recientes, Turquía había dado muestras tímidas de querer desarrollar una política exterior propia, un poco desmarcada de la de Estados Unidos: realizó gestos de acercamiento a Irán y endureció un poco su disucurso hacia Israel.

La cadena de acontecimientos que propició lo que eventualmente se convertiría en un cambio de rumbo bastante más pronunciado, sin embargo, inició con el asalto militar israelí del 31 de mayo de 2010 a la “Flotilla de la Libertad”, que se proponía romper el bloqueo a Gaza, y que se saldó con la muerte a balazos de ocho civiles turcos y de un turco-estadounidense, sobre un buque de bandera turca, en aguas internacionales. Erdoğan exigió que Israel presentara disculpas y se hiciera cargo de indemnizar a los familiares, pero encontró una gélida negativa de parte del primer ministro israelí, Binyamin Netanyahu.

Los turcos tardaron en definir una postura con respecto a las insurreciones en varios países árabes, que empezaron en Túnez en diciembre de 2010. Sólo fue en mayo cuando brindó su apoyo a los rebeldes libios y contribuyó enviando barcos para rescatar a personas heridas en la ciudad asediada de Misrata, y esperó hasta agosto para reclamar la salida del poder del sirio Bachir al Assad (el miércoles 21, anunció sanciones económicas contra Siria).

Históricamente, árabes y turcos se han mostrado desconfianza. Desde el siglo XIII y hasta 1918, el Imperio Otomano (del que la Turquía republicana es heredera) gobernó con mano dura sobre pueblos árabes de Irak a Libia. Denunciar el “imperialismo” de los turcos (Davotoğlu ha sido acusado de ser “neo-otomanista”) es lugar común entre los políticos de la región. Esto no impidió que Erdoğan decidiera convertir a su país, y a sí mismo, en campeón de los árabes.

QUEREMOS A EGIPTO

Aunque en los hechos, su país ha hecho menos que otros para ayudar a los distintos pueblos insurrectos, del 12 al 16 de septiembre realizó una gira en la que multitudes lo aclamaron en Egipto (Erdoğan fue descrito en un popular programa de TV como “un hombre que es admirado no sólo por un amplio sector en Turquía, sino también por un amplio sector de los árabes y los musulmanes”), Túnez y Libia. Programada para la tarde del día 15, debía hacer de Erdoğan el primer gobernante extranjero en visitar este último país, tras la caída de Muamar Gadafi. No lo quisieron permitir los mandatarios de Francia y Gran Bretaña, Nicolas Sarkozy y David Cameron, que asumieron la iniciativa y el peso de la intervención internacional que facilitó el derrocamiento del libio. A toda prisa, improvisaron una visita a Trípoli, en la mañana del día 15.

“Hay un aspecto en el que no lo pueden adelantar”, anota Medeniyeti, “y que le ha ganado una enorme popularidad entre los árabes comunes: la retórica pro-palestina y anti-israelí”. Los desaires de Netanyahu (más los resbalones del ministro de exteriores israelí, Avigdor Lieberman, quien propuso a su gobierno brindarles apoyos a los guerrilleros kurdos que combaten contra Turquía) y la negativa del gobierno israelí a hacer concesiones que permitan el diálogo con los palestinos, le ha dado pie a Erdoğan para referirse en duros términos a Israel y sus aliados (“el niño mimado de Occidente”, lo llamó), así como para imponer una serie de medidas (retiro de su embajador en Tel Aviv, suspensión de la colaboración militar y del comercio en el mismo rubro, retribución del maltrato a turcos en aeropuertos israelíes) y realizar amenazas: desde un patrullaje más frecuente en el Mediterráneo Oriental hasta la protección naval a futuras flotillas.

En caso de una confrontación armada, Washington tendería a alinearse con Israel, pero a costa de destruir la OTAN, a la que pertenece Turquía y que obliga a la defensa de sus miembros.

“Erdoğan y Davotoğlu apuestan a fortalecerse aliándose con Egipto”, sostiene Medeniyeti. Su oportunidad descansa en que este país está en juego: la junta militar que lo gobierna preferiría mantener la asociación con E.U. e Israel, pero enfrenta una enorme presión popular en sentido contrario y los turcos están tratando de aprovecharla para influir a su favor. “Algunos pueden pensar que Egipto y Turquía son competidores”, dijo Davotoğlu en la entrevista. “No. Ésta es nuestra decisión extratégica. Queremos un Egipto fuerte ahora”.

The Flotilla Debate

I’ve gathered here the links to help you follow the interesting debate among Turks, Palestinians and Israelis that took place on my Facebook profile, about the IDF attack to the Free Gaza Flotilla, on 31 May 2010.

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First part (31 May): If the Israeli leaders want to secure the destruction of the state of Israel, they just have to keep following the way they’ve chose

Second part (31 May): The Israeli government’s side of the story

Third part: (31 May-1 June): 16 people are feared dead

Four part (1 June): Gaza Flotilla attack: Trying to shed some light in the darkness

Fifth part (1-5 June): How did the attack start?

Sixth Part (8 June): A response to Bernard-Henri Levy


The Flotilla Debate 5

Back to The Flotilla Debate’s start page

Témoris Grecko How did the attack start? Why did they send the soldiers one by one into an obviously angry crowd, armed with paintball guns-if this is true? Why did they seem unwilling to fight back? What happened when they started shooting? Where are the firearms the army says the activists shot? Why don’t they show the confiscated videos? How many people died? What are their names?

02 June at 19:44 ·
Hurrem Sonmez

Hurrem Sonmez 

I am listening the activists now on TV, who arrived from Israel, and all of them telling the similar story and its really tragic, many of them say that more than 9 dead and more injured people, because they have some lost people, and it looks horroble for example they shoot one doctor from 1 metre who is trying to give injured people to soldiers… objective journalists tell “attack started 4.15 with gas bombs and zodiac boats, submarines and helicopters and suddenly they shoot, one more important think one cameraman say they started shoot from helicopter before arrive board, some activists fighted because they tried defense themself with iron sticks, some of them took the gun of Israel soldiers but people from vessel never used these guns. ” They say journalists have photographs and records but ısrael soldiers took all of them. So I think tomorrow we will learn more details..
03 June at 04:10 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

The Spanish passengers who have just arrived are telling similar stories: the soldiers shooting to kill from the Zodiac boats and the helicopters, a doctor shot from close range when he tried to help the wounded, abuses against the prisoners.
Some people still want to think that all there is to see is shown in the army’s videos. But they confiscated all those images taken by the activists and journalists. The IDF don’t even show all the videos of their own. How can anyone feel satisfied with that?
03 June at 10:51 ·  · 

Amir Colnect Wald

Amir Colnect Wald 

Shooting to kill and managed to kill only 9 defenseless activists?
Plz explain to me u think Israel gains from “shooting to kill” the activists?
03 June at 11:58 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

This is their account, not mine. No conclusions yet. 

But the kind guys in the Israeli government are of the worse kind you can find in Israeli politics, as you know. They believe in strong Israel, in an aggressive Israel with which no one can mess. And they are eager to teach lessons (this is a quite common thing in the history of the State, asyou well know): wanna mess with Israel? It’s gonna cost you dearly. They believe that hitting hard is going to prevent any one to raise their voice against Israel forever. We know that this doctrine is counterproductive, look at the present. And look at the future, where more confrontation will be borne out of this. But they don’t know it.

03 June at 12:07 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

By the way, we’re not sure yet 9 is the final number of fatal victims. And they wounded about 50 people. You don’t do that with paintball guns.
03 June at 12:08 ·  · 

Amir Colnect Wald

Amir Colnect Wald 

Thanks for the clarification. 

If that is the doctrine they believe in, wouldn’t they prefer to actually sink the ships once they cross the border?

03 June at 12:10 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

I can easily imagine some minister proposing that in a cabinet meeting…
03 June at 12:16 ·  · 

Çağatay Sönmez

Çağatay Sönmez 

some of the greek activists were in a different boat.. and they said that they were electro-shocked and tortured.. 

anyway, what israel is doing to gaza is totally illegal according to the international law! i mean the siege of gaza.. and bombing-killing civillians.. should UN bomb israeli war ships, helicopters, tanks??

03 June at 14:14 ·  · 

Odelia Lavie

Odelia Lavie 

What scares me most is that here in Israel, in the media or on the (jewish) street you here only one voice. There is no shade of a doubt; there is no hint of self – examination, of reflection. There are no shades of grey. the “left” voice is non existent in mainstream media. All we get to hear is we r proud of our soldiers we have the right for self defence and the world can f*** right off. maybe for things to get better they have to go worse first. And it looks like it’s getting worse by the hour.
03 June at 17:21 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

Is it that bad, Odi? 

This kind of reactions are only worsening the situation, by isolating the Israeli public from reality and driving it down this self-destructive path. Netanyahu says the whole world is wrong and many in the society look desperately wanting to believe his narrative.

I admire the courage of many who speak out against this powerful and repressive mainstream society, those Uri Blaus, Anat Kams and Gideon Levys, as well as dear friends of mine who expose themselves both to police aggression and the maybe more fearful harsh criticism within their kin –friends, relatives, class- and work-mates…

I know it is a lot easier to write about this from lovely Barcelona. But I want their honest effort to be visible too, to help those near me to realise that this criminal government doesn’t represent everyone in Israel, that there is consciousness and dissidence, the basic human material needed to keep alive the prospect of a better future.

Sadly, you might be right. Gideon Levy said something similar a few days ago, explaining his support for a boycott against Israel similar to the one against Apartheid Sout Africa: “As long as the Israelis don’t pay any price, there won’t be a change”, he wrote in Ha’aretz. I hate the idea of a boycott because it hurts everyone, good and bad and all those in between, and that includes you and Dani and Yael, and other people with a place in my heart.

What’s horrible is that, as the wall stopped the suicide attacks, the Israeli society stopped caring. Is it really necessary to inflict pain, that things go worse to push a human society towards fairness? Does Israel need to go down the South African racists’ way to realise the urgency of radical change? Others, you know, are not calling for boycotts, but for the military destruction of Israel.

What lessons haven’t we learned from the past? What tragic lessons is this painful process teaching us, that we will forget in the future? Are we really condemned to repeat history for ever and ever?

03 June at 18:47 ·  · 

Amir Colnect Wald

Amir Colnect Wald 

I completely disagree with Odelia. There is definitely pluralism here in Israel. We have Haaretz which takes a clear left-wing stand. We have Israel Hayom which is clearly right-winged. You may accuse other media participants in being biased but sources such as YNet are often blamed by both left and right wingers. 

As most Israelis are on the Internet, they are exposed to whichever news source they wish to choose. Israel is a democracy and freedom of speech is protected here. Yes, not everyone would want to hear what you think, but you can clearly say it out loud and demonstrate.

03 June at 19:55 ·  · 

Odelia Lavie

Odelia Lavie 

amir, do u listen to the radio? did u hear any multiple voices? i was talking about the mainstream media. sure anybody can look into whatever website they want – thank god for that. and yes. we have haaretz. the least popular out of the big 3 newspapers but we have it. (by the way i know someone who wanted to cancel their haaretz subscription because of the Anat Kam story, and im sure they r not the only ones.)
03 June at 20:10 ·  · 

Amir Colnect Wald

Amir Colnect Wald 

I don’t listen to radio nor watch television nor read newspapers. I prefer to consume information when I care for it using various sources. I also talk to many people here, from extreme left to extreme right. There are many shades and many different opinions. Most non-extremists are not that certain way is the best.
There are many radio stations in Israel and I’m sure that if you really want and have some money, you can start a new one voicing your opinions.
Haaretz being less popular than Yediot and Maariv has to do with the newspaper itself and its appeal, not with some regulating hand. There are right-wing newspapers out there which are less popular than Haaretz, should we blame big brother for that? 

The TV channels are often attacked from both extreme left and extreme right. Both sides claim that the media is one-sided. Many extreme left activists claim it’s very right wing biased showing Israel as the good guys always and many right wingers claim the mainstream media is owned by the left wing and is often too radical to the point that it hurts Israel and endangers lives of Israelis.

Was the condemnation against Israel on recent events been hidden from Israeli TV/Radio channels? Did they always show only one side of the story?

03 June at 20:51 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

I heard that last time I was in Israel, they got many cancellation requests… I think Ha’aretz is doing an enourmous job. But I also read many who wanted to cancel something else, the newspaper’s own existance. You guys can be satisfied of having a vibrant print press. But I wouldn’t say having to submit to the military censorship makes it thefreeest press, as neither does the fact that a court can order once and again an informative blackout, based “on security reasons”. I just read somewhere in Israel that that is the typical pretext to silence someone in dictatorships but somehow it has become a costume in Israel, without any accountability over the censors. 

Nevertheless, having a vibrant and almost free press is no guarantee of you having a pluralistic, well-informed society. I was dissapointed when I learned that Ha’aretz’s readership is far smaller than its competition, the two other big papers.

And more importantly, what’s coming through the waves? Until the 2009 crackdown on the opposition, the Iranian authorities wre content with having full control over Tv and radio, the most important sources of information for a huge majority of people. Only later they went to shut down the opposition’s print media. I’m not saying the situation is the same, you don’t have a religious supreme leader appointing the Tv and radio directors. But a truly free societal discussion must include the electronic media, as it reaches farther than anybody else. I don’t know whether this is the case in Israel and Odi suggests it is not.

Do you think people are looking balanced information on the internet, or maybe most of them are looking to reaffirm the points of view they already share with the mainstream society? You tell me.

03 June at 20:52 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

amir, i see that we wrote almost at the same time, so my las t comment is not a repluy to your last… I’ll take another look tomorrow, good night!
04 June at 00:32 ·  · 

Amir Colnect Wald

Amir Colnect Wald 

Censorship exists and is important. The majority of times it’s used is in regard to reporting details that may harm people. The details usually become public pretty often after the aftermath has passed. The most common use of censorship is that in Israel names of soldiers killed are not published on the media before the army sends an officer to notify the families in person.
You may try to present the censorship in a different light but the truth of the matter is that nothing serious can be hidden for long here. We live in a small country and if somebody really wants to know something, they will. 

To your last question, I believe most Israelis, as most people in the world, usually look for information that affirms their beliefs. However, beliefs do change. Mainstream public opinion in Israel is changing constantly. The fact it doesn’t match one’s own opinions doesn’t make the democratic process irrelevant. It has become too customary for people in Israel to attack Israel and specifically anyone who doesn’t conform to their opinions. As I’ve previously told you, I have friends from the entire spectrum of the political map here. Usually, the more extreme you are, either to left or right, you feel more prosecuted though objectively most people not on your side wouldn’t feel you’re right on it. This doesn’t seem abnormal to me.

On many issues you see demonstrations from both sides of the political map. People can express their opinions freely and without fear.

04 June at 16:51 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

One thing that comes to my attention when I read what you write is your use of “left” and “right”, and by doing this, yourself kind of standing out like neither one nor the other. In every country in the world, the centre occupies different places in the global political spectrum, or at least, the Western political spectrum. For decades since the occupation of Gaza and the WB, Israel’s centre has been sliding dramatically to the right. Any one who could call himself moderately rightist in Israel, would be an extremist either in USA or Europe. I’ve read things in the Israeli press that would be considered intollerably Fascist –yeah, Fascist– and unacceptable in most other democratic countries. And those stances come from the currently dominant political class. The claim that Israel experiences a particular military situation doesn’t justifiy this. And placing yourself in between right and left might look fair from an Israeli political perspective. But it looks far right from here. 

Anyway, I don’t consider you are any where near the far right. You are calling for peace, a mutually respectful peace, even with love. That stance, my friend, is not placing you in between right and left. In any other country, that would put you anywhere from the moderate right to the moderate left. In Israel, that is putting you clearly on the Leftist side. Congrats.

05 June at 11:07 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

One of the consequencues of this national slide to the extreme right is that freedom of expression looks at risk in Israel. You are minimising its effects, I think knowingly. But there are a lot of things that are suppressed by censorship. One of the several Uri Blau’s articles on military corruption, based on Anat Kam’s papers, was censored, even if it didn’t mention any soldiers killed. Everything regarding Anat Kam’s persecution was banned from going to the public, until pressure became too big and everybody abroad had published it, keeping it censored was only ridiculising Israel. And as I said, important politicians from the government and pundits called for the newspaper’s closure. Not only that, they wanted to strip the journalists of their citizenship. I was appaled by reading this. You would never hear that in any other democratic country.
05 June at 11:12 ·  · 
Témoris Grecko 

And yes, people uses internet to find the information that suits them. We agree on that. That’s what’s powerful of this medium. But at the same time, that relativises its importance in informing a society that is not willing to use it for that purpose. I’m happy because some poeple have told me that more Israelis are trying to see this affair lessunder the mainstream spotlight. But that doesn’t mean thast a majority of the society has the means to escape from manipulation. Nor the will. 

That’s whats isolating and endangering this society. The whole world looked at the Flotilla attack as a unnecessary barbarian act of savagery. But the mainstream in israel sees it as soldiers defending themselves, is blinded againt any other argument and its main debate is about whether the army reacted late to fight the PR war. It is amazing to see how so many israelis won’t hear anything else, even if they are losing friends by tons. Even if their last remaining friends are telling them they dramatically screwed it.

Will you call The Economist antiIsrael? If you won’t, then read their last editorial: ” More worryingly for Israel, the episode is accelerating a slide towards its own isolation. Once admired as a plucky David facing down an array of Arab Goliaths, Israel is now seen as the clumsy bully on the block.”
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=16274081

This attack is useless and is going to have terrible lasting consequences, for all of us in general, as it makes it a lot more difficult to achieve peace, but for israel in particular. Your survival as a nation is there, and this illegal and abussive action was a great step to endanger it more.

05 June at 11:26 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko The consequences of the Israeli government’s stupidity will have many expressions. Just to mention a few: One is having emboldened Iran’s Ahmadinejad, Netanyahu made him so happy! He has made the condemning statements his Arab counterparts can’t make, and so he advances on his bid for a wide Muslim leadership (and on his claim for nuclear energy, of course). With him, Hamas feels vindicated, once again.
Another one is that, as they have weekly demos in Bil’in and Sheikh Jarrah, now they will have yearly Gaza Flotillas, always more popular, with more recruits, vessels and resources, and more radicalised.
On returning to Sweden, writer Henning Mankell said: “What will happen next year when we come back with hundreds of boats? Will they drop an atomic bomb?” Read it following the link.
My friend Mari said that the Israeli leaders are not stupid, but evil. I replied that being evil doesn’t spare you from being stupid. She agreed.

02 June at 20:06 ·  ·  · Share
Mari Zuñiga-Chavez 

muy buen punto el de Mankell.
02 June at 20:17 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko I love Netanyahu: “World ‘hypocritical’ for condemning Gaza flotilla raid”. You, he, she, they: everybody is wrong, only I am right! 

And another headline: “Netanyahu: I regret Gaza flotilla deaths, but Israeli troops had right to self-defense”. So you come to board my ship and imprison me in self-defense?

 

 

In first address to nation, Netanyahu says had Turkish-flagged ship breached blockade, so could hundreds of vessels carrying weapons.
02June at 20:19 ·  ·  · Share
Emre Kayalanzáde likes this.
Suha Araj 

It is impressive how Israel is always the victim but everyone else ends up dead.
02 June at 20:38 ·  · 

Xavier Castillo

Xavier Castillo 

It’s like hearing back G.W. Bush talking about his “preventive” attack to Irak, due their inexisting weapons… Self-defense now seems to be the best excuse for stupid violence…
02 June at 20:40 ·  · 

Mari Zuñiga-Chavez

Mari Zuñiga-Chavez 

I think I get his point, the world is hypocritical because they condemn the atack but they don’t really mean what they say, at the end is just words because NOBODY is really going to do ANYTHING against Israel other than the speech so they are very hypocritical.
02 June at 21:02 ·  · 
Emre Kayalanzáde 

some people already started to do sth and it’ll be keep going and nothing will be same as before for them between us and them. about political,strategic-economic-military partnership etc..
02 June at 21:07 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko I think more and more Israeli citizens realise what their country’s policies are doing: they are the main and foremost enemy of its legitimacy, the great delegitimiser. Israel’s legitimacy was founded on the crimes commited against Jews in the Holocaust. Now some can pretend that a few little IDF videos justify their actions, but all crimes will come out in time and Israel will be forever judged under their light.03 June at 10:37 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

What they did in this attack is actually small beer compared with the siege on Gaza, the opression over the West Bank and everyday’s discrimination against Arab citizens of Israel (and Sephardites, Ethiopian and other “Oriental” Jews). Israel has been able to get away with it until now. But with history’s hindsight, students in the future will look at it with horror, finding difficulty to understand how the world let it happen, and how could a country like this one, whose people pride themselves on their democracy and civil manners, commit so many abuses with so much disrespect for life and rights.
Look at Jews in the Diaspora: they are reacting against this doomed trend and demand a radical change of policies. Hopefully, the voices of people within Israel with similar demands will be finally many and enough to make it happen.
03 June at 10:46 ·  · 

Xtina Avila Zesatti

Xtina Avila Zesatti 

once again …. ‘told you’ ….. ;-)
03 June at 11:47 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

Exactly what you told me? ;-)
03 June at 12:01 ·  · 

Xtina Avila Zesatti

Xtina Avila Zesatti 

dije que cada vez más israelíes estaban (y estarían) en contra de las acciones de su gobierno, y que había que ir poniendo cada vez más la atención en ellos … (los pacíficos son pocos y se sienten solos, dijiste tú…. ) ;-P
03 June at 12:04 ·  · 
Témoris Grecko 

Yo te dije cómo se sentían los pacifistas (que no pacíficos) cuando yo estaba allá, y también lo que me estaban transmitiendo cuando esto recién sucedió y ellos acudían a las manis de protesta. Su objetivo es crear conciencia y lograr que más gente levante su voz. Van avanzando y eso es bueno. No sé si por haber señalado que mis amigos se sentían solos ahora estoy incurriendo en una contradicción, o si yo mejor debería negar por siempre que estos avances se producen. 

Me importa dejar claro que hay una disidencia israelí y judía importante, porque estoy leyendo comentarios racistas muy, muy fuertes, desde lugares donde no los había escuchado antes.

Y también tienes que explicarme el “once again”. Cuándo fue la otra vez que you told me? ;-P

03 June at 12:16 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko “Yes, nine persons died (in the Flotilla atack), and 155 in an attack in India. Who cares? Twenty three Spaniards died on the highways last weekend”. 

Who said this, showing such a great sensibility? Israel’s ambassador to Spain, Raphael Schutz, who yesterday called a press conference to apologise for his words, a product of “an unfortunate human mistake”. No wonder why Israel has bad PR.

Estaba cansado y se equivocó. Es la razón que alega el embajador de Israel en España, Raphael Schutz, para justificar que ayer comparara, en una entrevista con EL PERIÓDICO DE CATALUNYA, las víctimas del ataque a la Flota de la Libertad con los muertos por accidente de tráfico. …
05 June at 12:08 ·  ·  · Share

Mari Zuñiga-Chavez

Mari Zuñiga-Chavez 

Hijole siguen sin entender que calladitos se ven mas bonitos cada que abren la boca la riegan.
05 June at 17:55 ·  · 

Mónica Adriana Figueroa Peña

06 June at 02:36 ·  · 
07 June at 16:09 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko Were the Flotilla’s killed activists linked to Al Qaeda? Israel has been accusing them of that, but has not provided yet any evidence. And, according to this “Democracy Now” radio show report, it has quietly retracted: 

“The Israeli military, meanwhile, has been forced to retract its claim
that passengers aboard the flotilla were agents of al-Qaeda. An Israel
Defense Forces press release sent out two days after the assault says
approximately forty flotilla passengers “are mercenaries belonging to
the Al Qaeda terror organization.” The independent journalist Max
Blumenthal says both he and an Israeli colleague asked the Israeli
military press office to substantiate its claim. No evidence was
provided, and one day later the press released was modified. The
original headline was changed from “Attackers of the IDF Soldiers Found
to be Al Qaeda Mercenaries” to “Attackers of the IDF Soldiers Found
Without Identification Papers.” Commenting on the retraction,
Blumenthal writes, “The more Israel’s claims about the flotilla’s
terrorist links are challenged, the more they fall apart.””

 

 

05 June at 12:57 ·  ·  · Share

The Flotilla Debate 3

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Témoris Grecko “Channel 4 News has learnt 16 people are feared dead following the clashes. Another unconfirmed report puts the toll at 19.
A spokesperson for “Freedom Flotilla” says three people are hurt on another boat, believed to be a joint Greek and Swedish vessel. The captain is reportedly among the injured.”

 

<P>The death toll could be as high as 19 following a raid by Israeli commandos on a Gaza-bound aid ship. <STRONG>Channel 4 News has also been told</STRONG>&nbsp;there have been violent clashes on another vessel in the flotilla.</P>
31 May at 19:13 ·  ·  · Share
Çağatay Sönmez 

c’mon temoris, commandos were protecting themselves from that activists.. cuz activists were carrying big loooong steel sticks.. and they hurt so bad.. that s why they shoot real ammunition.. 

even the way that they re defending themself is f..ing crazy and hilarious!!

01 June at 01:05 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko Yesterday, I asked: “How many imbeciles can you count in the Israeli government?” The Israeli press did it for us: seven. Starting with Prime Minister Netanyahu and MInister of Defence Barak. 

I’m surprised that journalist Yossi Sarid didn’t include Foreign Affairs Minister Lieberman. Maybe because he didn’t have direct authority in an operation like this one.

Sarid concludes: “Stupidity knows no bounds, and it is a ministerial prerogative. And what is boundless is also unfathomable. So the septet will persist in its evil ways, endangering us more than any ship could, for madness will rule us. That gang in Jerusalem will insist on drowning us again and again, for there is no courage to change even after all the disasters.”

 

 

01 June at 17:55

Emiliano Ruiz Parra

Emiliano Ruiz Parra 

Temoris, unfortunately, there’s no stupidity in the Israeli government. There’s is just the arrogant sentiment of impunity which drives them to murder, apartheid and exploitation. They feel strong because they are backed up by the US, and by the hypocritical Western Europe. That’s why the claim for the Palestinian liberation (either in a binational state or in two states) is more compelling than ever.
01 June at 18:04 ·  · 

Çağatay Sönmez

Çağatay Sönmez 

congrats temo!! we must seperate israeli government and israeli ppl!!!
01 June at 18:16 ·  · 

Mari Zuñiga-Chavez

Mari Zuñiga-Chavez 

I don’t think either that it’s stupidity I think that it is evil, cuz I’m sure it was perfectly planned and they knew what they were doing and it is exactly what they wanted to do. They are no stupids they are evil and of course im talking about the ppl involved.
01 June at 19:01 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

I do think there is a lot of stupidity in that government, Maria. Let me compare them to George Bush’s neoconservatives: they went to Afghanistan and Iraq thinking they were going to realise their Project for a New American Century, and what they got was to accelerate the United States decline (plus thousands of their own soldiers dead and astronomic spending). They can be evil. But that doesn’t spare them from being stupid.
01 June at 20:17 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

Cagatay, yes… that’s a very important point. I’m following the Israeli press and they are really concerned on this and other matters regarding the opression against the Palestinians. Take a look of Gideon Levy’s today’s article: 

“Like in “Mini-Israel,” the park where there is everything, but smaller, Israel embarked yesterday on a mini Operation Cast Lead. Like its larger, losing predecessor, this operation had it all: the usual false claim that is was they who had started it – and not the landing of commandos from helicopters on a ship in open sea, away from Israeli territorial waters. There was the claim that the first act of violence came not from the soldiers, but the rioting activists on Mavi Marmara; that the blockade on Gaza is legal and that the flotilla to its shores is against the law – God knows which law.
Again came the claim of self defense, that “they lynched us” and that all the dead are on their side. Once more the use of violence and excessive and lethal force was in play and once more civilians wound up dead.”

Another paragraph:
“Yesterday’s fiasco could and should have been prevented. This flotilla should have been allowed to pass and the blockade should be brought to an end.”

“Yesterday there was no one on the planet, not a newsman or analyst, except for its conscripted chorus, who could say a good word about the lethal takeover.”
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/operation-mini-cast-lead-1.293417

01 June at 20:22 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

Cagatay, yes… that’s a very important point. I’m following the Israeli press and they are really concerned on this and other matters regarding the opression against the Palestinians. Take a look of Gideon Levy’s today’s article: 

“Like in “Mini-Israel,” the park where there is everything, but smaller, Israel embarked yesterday on a mini Operation Cast Lead. Like its larger, losing predecessor, this operation had it all: the usual false claim that is was they who had started it – and not the landing of commandos from helicopters on a ship in open sea, away from Israeli territorial waters. There was the claim that the first act of violence came not from the soldiers, but the rioting activists on Mavi Marmara; that the blockade on Gaza is legal and that the flotilla to its shores is against the law – God knows which law.
Again came the claim of self defense, that “they lynched us” and that all the dead are on their side. Once more the use of violence and excessive and lethal force was in play and once more civilians wound up dead.”

Another paragraph:
“Yesterday’s fiasco could and should have been prevented. This flotilla should have been allowed to pass and the blockade should be brought to an end.”

“Yesterday there was no one on the planet, not a newsman or analyst, except for its conscripted chorus, who could say a good word about the lethal takeover.”
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/operation-mini-cast-lead-1.293417

01 June at 20:22 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

Emiliano, hola! Same answer!
01 June at 20:33 ·  · 

Waleed Serhan

Waleed Serhan 

I think idoits is a very small word in this situation, probably sounds funny but they are more accurately War Criminals
01 June at 20:59 ·  · 

Guadalupe Moreno Corzo

Guadalupe Moreno Corzo 

De acuerdo. Que sean malos no quiere decir que no hay estupidez desbordada. Dale poder a un cretino y qué tienes. Un beso, querido Témoris.
01 June at 21:02 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

Well, not exactly, Waleed. They’d like to portray it as a war situation in which their soldiers were defending their own soil against an equally dangerous force. But it was a peacetime situation, in international waters, and they were facing civilians, most of them unarmed and only a few armed with slingshots. 

Un besote, querida Lupita!

01 June at 22:25 ·  · 

Mari Zuñiga-Chavez

Mari Zuñiga-Chavez 

Got it Temoris and I have to say that after the comparison I totally agree!
01 June at 22:48 ·  · 

Matan Bar

Matan Bar 

agree with every word sarid says…
02 June at 01:57 ·  · 

The Flotilla Debate 1

Back to The Flotilla Debate’s start page

Témoris Grecko If the Israeli leaders want to secure the destruction of the state of Israel, they just have to keep following the way they’ve chosen

31 May at 13:06 ·  · 

 

Çağatay Sönmez Çağatay Sönmez 

Turkish navy MUST be company to those civillian AID boats on their way back home! this is the first time turkish ppl are killed by a state’s army..
31 May at 13:14 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko What is the Israeli press saying? “We are no longer defending Israel. We are now defending the siege. The siege itself is becoming Israel’s Vietnam.”
“we, unable to see ourselves in any clarity, are no longer capable of stopping ourselves”

 

 

We are no longer defending Israel. We are now defending the siege, which is itself is becoming Israel’s Vietnam.

Témoris Grecko How many imbeciles can you count in the Israeli government?

Ilse Kleine 

Ilse Kleine 

Uuuta!…
31 May at 16:20 ·  · 

Pedro Aguirre

Pedro Aguirre 

Quite a lot, indeed
31 May at 17:34 ·  · 
Michelle Solano 

Michelle Solano 

Todos lo son!!
31 May at 18:10 ·  · 
Mari Zuñiga-Chavez 

No ps ta cabron pa ponerse a contar!
01 June at 03:09 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko The number of casualties is still unclear, as well as their identities. The majority of the people on board the ships were Turkish. Also there were three Spaniards and people from Algeria, Australia, Belgium, Canada, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Kuwait, Malaysia, Norway, Palestine, Serbia, Sweden, the United Kingdom, and the United States

31 May at 14:02 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko Raw footage coming out from one of the attacked ships, in differewnt languages inc. English

31 May at 14:18 ·  ·  · Share

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

We hear how they are being attacked even after having raised the white falg, and how someone warns the passengers on the use of live ammunition by the israeli soldiers, “we can no longer protect ourselves”
31 May at 14:26 ·  · 

Mari Zuñiga-Chavez

Mari Zuñiga-Chavez 

Y ahora a ver q dice israel de esto porque no hay manera de justificarlo NADA pueden decir pero quiero ver una declaración oficial y también ver q hace el mundo al respecto porque han ido demasiado lejos y no se pueden quedar todos como su nada como se han quedado siempre ante los abusos que cometen ya como de rutina. Vaya que manera de despertar.
31 May at 15:59 ·  · 

Matan Bar

Nadav Porat-Chomsky

Nadav Porat-Chomsky 

1. “live ammunition is being heard.” that can be coming from both sides.
2. what the FUCK are children doing there, i mean, for fuck sake.
3. could that have been before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk&NR=1
and, i know, their answer was cutted “negative, our destination is…”. questions arise.
4. tho blockade should be stopped, Gaza should be freed, Palastine has the full right to exist side by side to Israel peacefully, but please dear friends (and by that i refer all people): this IS a public relations battle, have the cynicism to see through both sides lies. everyone’s a victim in this story, please do your best to bring in some equality.
my throat sores from shouting of Jews and Arabs who refuse to be enemies.
5. I’m 26, all i want to do is have some fun. let’s stop this foolishness and bloodshed. none of it in my behalf!
01 June at 00:57 ·  · 
Témoris Grecko 

Nadav, I’m trying to see both sides and also to consider different hypothesis. I’m very much aware that this is a PR battle. I don’t agree that everyone’s a victim in this story, though.I think we all have missions here. Mine is to try to figure out what’s happening and create awareness outside of the Middle East. Yours –and you are doing it– is create awareness within the Israeli society, so that it wakes up from it’s dumbness and pursues a lasting peace with their neighbours; as well as showing the Palestinians that they have Jews on their side too, that dialogue and understanding is possible. 

01 June at 07:39 ·  ·

Matan Bar recommends you to read this article, by ron ben yishai. israeli media is now full with IDF’s footage of the event, showing a different picture than what the other media is showing. please read it curefully, i would like to hear your opinion…

News: Ron Ben Yishai recounts bloody clash aboard Gaza-bound vessel: The lacking crowd-dispersal means, the brutal violence of ‘peace activists,’ and the attempt to bring down an IDF helicopter
Matan Bar 

Matan Bar 

every soldier had 1 pistol with live ammo. they were using paint ball guns, and were told to use the live ammo only if they are in life danger. the footage that is released now in israel shows the soldiers touch the deck from the helicopter, shouting “do not fire!’ and then attacked and lynched by tens of people. the navy commander is breaking into…See more
31 May at 16:38 ·  · 

Matan Bar

Matan Bar

Matan Bar 

and another thing that is in our media: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yphfyN0dqi8&feature=related

just to show that there is another face to this event

31 May at 17:00 ·  · 

Témoris Grecko

Témoris Grecko 

Thank you Matan, its important to consider the story from both sides. 

If what Ron Ben Yishal writes is going to be the official argument to explain the facts, the PR war is again lost for Israel. He made me feel sorry for the poor Israeli army, really. An operation badly planned, badly comandeered, badly executed. Is this the same army that claims to be one of the most modern and capable in the world?

He says: “It appeared the activists were well prepared for a fight.” So he wants us to believe that a bunch of what he calls “street fighters” were better prepared than the IDF soldiers… if this is true, I can’t understand why the State of Israel hasn’t been destroyed.

His explanation is missing the most fundamental part: How could all this good-meaning soldiers kill about 15 people and wound about 40 more?

That’s way too much.

When I was covering the demonstrations in Iran, I was appalled to hear the goverment’s argument that the 10 protestors they killed on June 20, 2009 were all “terrorists” who put the policemen’ and the militias’ lives in danger… How come all the dead fell only on one side, then?

Once and again, the actions and arguments of the Israeli government remind me of those of the Iranians.

We all know that Israel and the IDF will try to justify their actions, a new PR war has begun. What surprises me, many ntimes, is how simple and weak are their arguments. And it surprises me even more that many people in israel buy them. They want to believe them, I think.

But this is going to isolate Israel ever more. And it’s going to embolden those who want its destruction. Some right-wing extremists in Israel may think they won a battle: they badly, badly lost it.

If someone wanted to provoke Israel and lead it to make a huge mistake like killing scores of activists, Israel did all what it could to fulfill their wishes.

31 May at 17:13 ·  · 
Témoris Grecko 

And as for the first video, I’d also like to see the second part, when the soldiers kill 15 people. They are only showing us the part they like.
31 May at 17:20 ·  · 

Istanbul farewell

It was an amazing farewell and birthyear party last night, here in Istanbul! Attending were lovely people representing many nations: Türkiye, Israel, Deutschland, Italia, Colombia, USA, Slovenija, Argentina, France, UK, Schweiz… Am I missing someone? Suriya couldn’t come :-( And, of course, México. Next party on Saturday in Barcelona, and this time is my birthday and book launch!