Témoris Grecko How did the attack start? Why did they send the soldiers one by one into an obviously angry crowd, armed with paintball guns-if this is true? Why did they seem unwilling to fight back? What happened when they started shooting? Where are the firearms the army says the activists shot? Why don’t they show the confiscated videos? How many people died? What are their names?
Some people still want to think that all there is to see is shown in the army’s videos. But they confiscated all those images taken by the activists and journalists. The IDF don’t even show all the videos of their own. How can anyone feel satisfied with that?
Plz explain to me u think Israel gains from “shooting to kill” the activists?
But the kind guys in the Israeli government are of the worse kind you can find in Israeli politics, as you know. They believe in strong Israel, in an aggressive Israel with which no one can mess. And they are eager to teach lessons (this is a quite common thing in the history of the State, asyou well know): wanna mess with Israel? It’s gonna cost you dearly. They believe that hitting hard is going to prevent any one to raise their voice against Israel forever. We know that this doctrine is counterproductive, look at the present. And look at the future, where more confrontation will be borne out of this. But they don’t know it.
If that is the doctrine they believe in, wouldn’t they prefer to actually sink the ships once they cross the border?
anyway, what israel is doing to gaza is totally illegal according to the international law! i mean the siege of gaza.. and bombing-killing civillians.. should UN bomb israeli war ships, helicopters, tanks??
This kind of reactions are only worsening the situation, by isolating the Israeli public from reality and driving it down this self-destructive path. Netanyahu says the whole world is wrong and many in the society look desperately wanting to believe his narrative.
I admire the courage of many who speak out against this powerful and repressive mainstream society, those Uri Blaus, Anat Kams and Gideon Levys, as well as dear friends of mine who expose themselves both to police aggression and the maybe more fearful harsh criticism within their kin –friends, relatives, class- and work-mates…
I know it is a lot easier to write about this from lovely Barcelona. But I want their honest effort to be visible too, to help those near me to realise that this criminal government doesn’t represent everyone in Israel, that there is consciousness and dissidence, the basic human material needed to keep alive the prospect of a better future.
Sadly, you might be right. Gideon Levy said something similar a few days ago, explaining his support for a boycott against Israel similar to the one against Apartheid Sout Africa: “As long as the Israelis don’t pay any price, there won’t be a change”, he wrote in Ha’aretz. I hate the idea of a boycott because it hurts everyone, good and bad and all those in between, and that includes you and Dani and Yael, and other people with a place in my heart.
What’s horrible is that, as the wall stopped the suicide attacks, the Israeli society stopped caring. Is it really necessary to inflict pain, that things go worse to push a human society towards fairness? Does Israel need to go down the South African racists’ way to realise the urgency of radical change? Others, you know, are not calling for boycotts, but for the military destruction of Israel.
What lessons haven’t we learned from the past? What tragic lessons is this painful process teaching us, that we will forget in the future? Are we really condemned to repeat history for ever and ever?
As most Israelis are on the Internet, they are exposed to whichever news source they wish to choose. Israel is a democracy and freedom of speech is protected here. Yes, not everyone would want to hear what you think, but you can clearly say it out loud and demonstrate.
There are many radio stations in Israel and I’m sure that if you really want and have some money, you can start a new one voicing your opinions.
Haaretz being less popular than Yediot and Maariv has to do with the newspaper itself and its appeal, not with some regulating hand. There are right-wing newspapers out there which are less popular than Haaretz, should we blame big brother for that?
The TV channels are often attacked from both extreme left and extreme right. Both sides claim that the media is one-sided. Many extreme left activists claim it’s very right wing biased showing Israel as the good guys always and many right wingers claim the mainstream media is owned by the left wing and is often too radical to the point that it hurts Israel and endangers lives of Israelis.
Was the condemnation against Israel on recent events been hidden from Israeli TV/Radio channels? Did they always show only one side of the story?
Nevertheless, having a vibrant and almost free press is no guarantee of you having a pluralistic, well-informed society. I was dissapointed when I learned that Ha’aretz’s readership is far smaller than its competition, the two other big papers.
And more importantly, what’s coming through the waves? Until the 2009 crackdown on the opposition, the Iranian authorities wre content with having full control over Tv and radio, the most important sources of information for a huge majority of people. Only later they went to shut down the opposition’s print media. I’m not saying the situation is the same, you don’t have a religious supreme leader appointing the Tv and radio directors. But a truly free societal discussion must include the electronic media, as it reaches farther than anybody else. I don’t know whether this is the case in Israel and Odi suggests it is not.
Do you think people are looking balanced information on the internet, or maybe most of them are looking to reaffirm the points of view they already share with the mainstream society? You tell me.
You may try to present the censorship in a different light but the truth of the matter is that nothing serious can be hidden for long here. We live in a small country and if somebody really wants to know something, they will.
To your last question, I believe most Israelis, as most people in the world, usually look for information that affirms their beliefs. However, beliefs do change. Mainstream public opinion in Israel is changing constantly. The fact it doesn’t match one’s own opinions doesn’t make the democratic process irrelevant. It has become too customary for people in Israel to attack Israel and specifically anyone who doesn’t conform to their opinions. As I’ve previously told you, I have friends from the entire spectrum of the political map here. Usually, the more extreme you are, either to left or right, you feel more prosecuted though objectively most people not on your side wouldn’t feel you’re right on it. This doesn’t seem abnormal to me.
On many issues you see demonstrations from both sides of the political map. People can express their opinions freely and without fear.
Anyway, I don’t consider you are any where near the far right. You are calling for peace, a mutually respectful peace, even with love. That stance, my friend, is not placing you in between right and left. In any other country, that would put you anywhere from the moderate right to the moderate left. In Israel, that is putting you clearly on the Leftist side. Congrats.
That’s whats isolating and endangering this society. The whole world looked at the Flotilla attack as a unnecessary barbarian act of savagery. But the mainstream in israel sees it as soldiers defending themselves, is blinded againt any other argument and its main debate is about whether the army reacted late to fight the PR war. It is amazing to see how so many israelis won’t hear anything else, even if they are losing friends by tons. Even if their last remaining friends are telling them they dramatically screwed it.
Will you call The Economist antiIsrael? If you won’t, then read their last editorial: ” More worryingly for Israel, the episode is accelerating a slide towards its own isolation. Once admired as a plucky David facing down an array of Arab Goliaths, Israel is now seen as the clumsy bully on the block.”
This attack is useless and is going to have terrible lasting consequences, for all of us in general, as it makes it a lot more difficult to achieve peace, but for israel in particular. Your survival as a nation is there, and this illegal and abussive action was a great step to endanger it more.
Témoris Grecko The consequences of the Israeli government’s stupidity will have many expressions. Just to mention a few: One is having emboldened Iran’s Ahmadinejad, Netanyahu made him so happy! He has made the condemning statements his Arab counterparts can’t make, and so he advances on his bid for a wide Muslim leadership (and on his claim for nuclear energy, of course). With him, Hamas feels vindicated, once again.
Another one is that, as they have weekly demos in Bil’in and Sheikh Jarrah, now they will have yearly Gaza Flotillas, always more popular, with more recruits, vessels and resources, and more radicalised.
On returning to Sweden, writer Henning Mankell said: “What will happen next year when we come back with hundreds of boats? Will they drop an atomic bomb?” Read it following the link.
My friend Mari said that the Israeli leaders are not stupid, but evil. I replied that being evil doesn’t spare you from being stupid. She agreed.
Témoris Grecko I love Netanyahu: “World ‘hypocritical’ for condemning Gaza flotilla raid”. You, he, she, they: everybody is wrong, only I am right!
And another headline: “Netanyahu: I regret Gaza flotilla deaths, but Israeli troops had right to self-defense”. So you come to board my ship and imprison me in self-defense?
Témoris Grecko I think more and more Israeli citizens realise what their country’s policies are doing: they are the main and foremost enemy of its legitimacy, the great delegitimiser. Israel’s legitimacy was founded on the crimes commited against Jews in the Holocaust. Now some can pretend that a few little IDF videos justify their actions, but all crimes will come out in time and Israel will be forever judged under their light.03 June at 10:37 · ·
Look at Jews in the Diaspora: they are reacting against this doomed trend and demand a radical change of policies. Hopefully, the voices of people within Israel with similar demands will be finally many and enough to make it happen.
Me importa dejar claro que hay una disidencia israelí y judía importante, porque estoy leyendo comentarios racistas muy, muy fuertes, desde lugares donde no los había escuchado antes.
Y también tienes que explicarme el “once again”. Cuándo fue la otra vez que you told me? ;-P
Témoris Grecko “Yes, nine persons died (in the Flotilla atack), and 155 in an attack in India. Who cares? Twenty three Spaniards died on the highways last weekend”.
Who said this, showing such a great sensibility? Israel’s ambassador to Spain, Raphael Schutz, who yesterday called a press conference to apologise for his words, a product of “an unfortunate human mistake”. No wonder why Israel has bad PR.
Témoris Grecko Were the Flotilla’s killed activists linked to Al Qaeda? Israel has been accusing them of that, but has not provided yet any evidence. And, according to this “Democracy Now” radio show report, it has quietly retracted:
“The Israeli military, meanwhile, has been forced to retract its claim
that passengers aboard the flotilla were agents of al-Qaeda. An Israel
Defense Forces press release sent out two days after the assault says
approximately forty flotilla passengers “are mercenaries belonging to
the Al Qaeda terror organization.” The independent journalist Max
Blumenthal says both he and an Israeli colleague asked the Israeli
military press office to substantiate its claim. No evidence was
provided, and one day later the press released was modified. The
original headline was changed from “Attackers of the IDF Soldiers Found
to be Al Qaeda Mercenaries” to “Attackers of the IDF Soldiers Found
Without Identification Papers.” Commenting on the retraction,
Blumenthal writes, “The more Israel’s claims about the flotilla’s
terrorist links are challenged, the more they fall apart.”"